For me, the only things that VSL needs to record are molto vibrato patches for Orchestral Strings, and to make the App Strings have as many articulations (as well as non vibrato) as the Orchestral Strings.
+1
-
@DG said:
...make the App Strings have as many articulations (as well as non vibrato) as the Orchestral Strings.
I really agree with this and wish it would be done since the Appassionata strings are so great. It is interesting that VSL did the Appassionata as a supplement to the other strings, but they sound so good that people have started to use them exclusively. And so as DG notes it would be good to have all the highly detailed articulations that the Orchestral strings have, even though from the standpoint of the original intention, it is redundant. I admit that I have done some substituting of Orchestral for Appassionata on certain artiulcations (like ponticello, etc.) that is not strictly speaking "correct" but was an essential workaround.
One other thing that occurred to me concerning more recordings not being needed - isn't using a lot of scripting with the samples that already exist basically against the whole philosophy of VSL? It's "pristine" approach to recording authentic samples of everything? I agree it could be done of course, but it seems against the whole approach of VSL. But maybe they will change that philosophy as things progress.
-
* Vienna Dimension Strings. (The Next Generation of Strings from VSL)
* Appassionata Strings 2. (More Articulations that complement Appas. Str. I)
* Any other New Strings from VSL would be Great !
Hopefully It won't be too long before something of this nature is announced [:D]
Cheers,
Muziksculp
-
@SyQuEsT said:
I don't know what will be the future but the answer of this question could hold in three words : Vienna Dimension Strings
Yeah I agree with that. The Dimension Brass could be like a test for the technology applied more extensively to recording simultaneously solo/soli and ensemble strings, which maybe could solve the now-universal problems of monolithic, chunky movement of sound in a many-player ensemble AND divisi.
-
I love the sound of VSL strings. By todays standards, however, its 2-speed legato is nowhere near enough compared to LA Scoring Strings or Hollywood Strings. So many pieces one may need to write will inevitably fall somewhere in between these 2 speeds. IMO, LASS's legato speed control presets are by far the best out there; better than Hollywood Strings, and certainly much better and more flexible than VSL. You can get a 4-part string piece written and articulated in no time compared the all the tweaks and adjustments you need to do to make certain pieces play well with VSL's 2 legato speed choices (and that is not saying it can even be done, because the choices simply do not exist). VSL needs to get back in the game with this. After all, they were the pioneers in this and you would think they'd be on it to compete in a big way. Unfortunately, however, I did read a post on this forum a few months ago where someone from VSL said they didn't think they were going to do a new string library like dimension strings. I hope they do something. I own the entire VSL library but I only use the woodwinds and elements these days...
-
@garylionelli said:
certainly much better and more flexible than VSL. You can get a 4-part string piece written and articulated in no time compared the all the tweaks and adjustments you need to do to make certain pieces play well with VSL's 2 legato speed choices (and that is not saying it can even be done, because the choices simply do not exist). VSL needs to get back in the game with this. After all, they were the pioneers in this and you would think they'd be on it to compete in a big way.I totally disagree with that. You're going on about techniques and the use of different legato speeds, etc.
But when a person steps back and listen to the final product the sound is what matters, and so far no other strings sound as good and natural in a mix as Appassionata.
I do agree it would be nice to have MORE articulations, MORE layers, MORE sounds, MORE strings, yeah!
-
Appassionata strings needs to have the same articulations as the original libraries... there are many that are missed! They are such a beautiful library, I wish they hadn't left those articulations out...
Lets have a vote: who votes for Dimension strings!!!? Come on... it would be great. VSL are the innovator, in this case the hollywood strings method is definitely on to something...
Ochestral Strings, in Divisi (the solo instruments are already done), and Appassionata Strings in Divisi. If you need to choose which one to do first, do Appassionata strings in divisi first, then orchestral strings.
-
@garylionelli said:
certainly much better and more flexible than VSL. You can get a 4-part string piece written and articulated in no time compared the all the tweaks and adjustments you need to do to make certain pieces play well with VSL's 2 legato speed choices (and that is not saying it can even be done, because the choices simply do not exist). VSL needs to get back in the game with this. After all, they were the pioneers in this and you would think they'd be on it to compete in a big way.I totally disagree with that. You're going on about techniques and the use of different legato speeds, etc.
But when a person steps back and listen to the final product the sound is what matters, and so far no other strings sound as good and natural in a mix as Appassionata.
I do agree it would be nice to have MORE articulations, MORE layers, MORE sounds, MORE strings, yeah!
I agree. VSL's sound is great and do sound very natural, no question. But if I can't control the legato speed to get the performance right, then it's useless to me.
-
Well the speed of legato would be nice to have more variations, yes. Like in a pp line to have a slower but not actually portamento legato would be good I agree.
However what I was saying was that legato speed is far less important than the overall sound of the strings in the mix, which is just not as good with LASS. They sound more artificial to me in just the sustaining tone. So those extra legatos don't make much difference, especially since you have portamento as well as sul/bowed legato with the Appassionata. But I do agree it would be good to have more variations.
-
@William said:
However what I was saying was that legato speed is far less important than the overall sound of the strings in the mix, which is just not as good with LASS. They sound more artificial to me in just the sustaining tone. So those extra legatos don't make much difference, especially since you have portamento as well as sul/bowed legato with the Appassionata. But I do agree it would be good to have more variations.
I don't agree with that. Listen to some wobbly old grainy and harsh string recordings from 60 years ago or more, and the performance shines over the bad tone. The emotion is conveyed by the performance. As far as LASS is concerned, you can work wonders with LASS and the proper EQ for each section. However, I didn't enter this thread to debate tone vs. performance, it's apples and oranges as far as what I was saying re legato variability. I simply would like new VSL strings with better legato.
-
DG: thanks I meant to point that out but forgot - you can vary the legato quite a lot with the start offset parameter, and for me it works very well, especially for instruments in a mix you get quite a bit of variation with that IMO.
I think there is no end to what we "want" and can ask for.... but there's no doubt, a dimension orchestral strings, and actually firstly before that a dimension appassionata strings (with all or most of the articulations of the orchestral strings) is a **must** :-) I think it's pretty safe to say nearly everyone would agree with that. ? We already have a "first chair" with the solo instruments, one could argue that the chamber strings is like a Divisi C for the orchestral strings (though not appassionatas), all that is needed is orchestral strings divisi a and b, and then the full set for the appassionata strings, which the solo strings can also be used as a first chair for those combinations as well with some extra eq and a bit of a stronger tuning on the humanise setting to blend with the appassionata strings.
-
@garylionelli said:
I don't agree with that. Listen to some wobbly old grainy and harsh string recordings from 60 years ago or more, and the performance shines over the bad tone. The emotion is conveyed by the performance. As far as LASS is concerned, you can work wonders with LASS and the proper EQ for each section. However, I didn't enter this thread to debate tone vs. performance, it's apples and oranges as far as what I was saying re legato variability. I simply would like new VSL strings with better legato."tone" ? I am not talking about audio quality particularly, I am talking about the extremely complex nature of recorded strings and especially what happens to strings when they are turned into samples. This is a combination of the quality of recording equipment, the venue in which the recording was made, the post production quality, the methods used in programming samples, AND the quality of the performance involved in the recording. All of these come together to produce some really horrible sounds with certain libraries - like the old Garritan string library. Remember that? I wasted a thousand bucks on that thing. I never used it once in any mix. Or think of Miroslav Vitous. Beautiful playing and recording but about six samples per instrument stretched all over the range in one velocity layer. But with the Mirosalv, the basic sound was very good and as a result it could be used in a certain cleverly limited way.
However, all string libraries in the past suffered from the artificiality of the most audible sound, the sound that people sitting in a movie theater or watching a DVD notice and are bombarded by far more than variations in legato connections - the sustaining, long-held note. The legato is of course essential to avoid spliced-together sustains - something I am all too painfully aware of - but the variations between legato are far less significant in a final mix than the quality of recording/musicality/programming which is an extremely complex Gestalt that either sounds good or horrific. So that is what I am talking about when I hear sweeping statements like "... if I can't control the legato speed to get the performance right, then it's useless..." It is absurd to say a sound that is far more natural, complex, better played, better recorded and more beautiful in every definable way is "useless."
-
@garylionelli said:
I don't agree with that. Listen to some wobbly old grainy and harsh string recordings from 60 years ago or more, and the performance shines over the bad tone. The emotion is conveyed by the performance. As far as LASS is concerned, you can work wonders with LASS and the proper EQ for each section. However, I didn't enter this thread to debate tone vs. performance, it's apples and oranges as far as what I was saying re legato variability. I simply would like new VSL strings with better legato."tone" ? I am not talking about audio quality particularly, I am talking about the extremely complex nature of recorded strings and especially what happens to strings when they are turned into samples. This is a combination of the quality of recording equipment, the venue in which the recording was made, the post production quality, the methods used in programming samples, AND the quality of the performance involved in the recording. All of these come together to produce some really horrible sounds with certain libraries - like the old Garritan string library. Remember that? I wasted a thousand bucks on that thing. I never used it once in any mix. Or think of Miroslav Vitous. Beautiful playing and recording but about six samples per instrument stretched all over the range in one velocity layer. But with the Mirosalv, the basic sound was very good and as a result it could be used in a certain cleverly limited way.
However, all string libraries in the past suffered from the artificiality of the most audible sound, the sound that people sitting in a movie theater or watching a DVD notice and are bombarded by far more than variations in legato connections - the sustaining, long-held note. The legato is of course essential to avoid spliced-together sustains - something I am all too painfully aware of - but the variations between legato are far less significant in a final mix than the quality of recording/musicality/programming which is an extremely complex Gestalt that either sounds good or horrific. So that is what I am talking about when I hear sweeping statements like "it's totally uselsss without the exact legato speed" which is absurd.
I disagree. Over and out.
