@garylionelli said:

certainly much better and more flexible than VSL. You can get a 4-part string piece written and articulated in no time compared the all the tweaks and adjustments you need to do to make certain pieces play well with VSL's 2 legato speed choices (and that is not saying it can even be done, because the choices simply do not exist). VSL needs to get back in the game with this. After all, they were the pioneers in this and you would think they'd be on it to compete in a big way.

I totally disagree with that.  You're going on about techniques and the use of different legato speeds, etc. 

But when a person steps back and listen to the final product the sound is what matters, and so far no other strings sound as good and natural in a mix as Appassionata. 

I do agree it would be nice to have MORE articulations, MORE layers, MORE sounds, MORE strings, yeah! 

Appassionata strings needs to have the same articulations as the original libraries... there are many that are missed! They are such a beautiful library, I wish they hadn't left those articulations out...

Lets have a vote: who votes for Dimension strings!!!? Come on... it would be great. VSL are the innovator, in this case the hollywood strings method is definitely on to something...

Ochestral Strings, in Divisi (the solo instruments are already done), and Appassionata Strings in Divisi. If you need to choose which one to do first, do Appassionata strings in divisi first, then orchestral strings.

 Hi Miklos!  How are you?

You're right it would be great to have all those Orchestral articulations, divisi and the popularly demanded  Appassionata sound in ...

VIenna Dimension Strings with Auto-Divisi and ULTRA LEGATO...

I'm good thanks for asking ;) How are you? What have you been up to?

@garylionelli said:

certainly much better and more flexible than VSL. You can get a 4-part string piece written and articulated in no time compared the all the tweaks and adjustments you need to do to make certain pieces play well with VSL's 2 legato speed choices (and that is not saying it can even be done, because the choices simply do not exist). VSL needs to get back in the game with this. After all, they were the pioneers in this and you would think they'd be on it to compete in a big way.

I totally disagree with that.  You're going on about techniques and the use of different legato speeds, etc. 

But when a person steps back and listen to the final product the sound is what matters, and so far no other strings sound as good and natural in a mix as Appassionata. 

I do agree it would be nice to have MORE articulations, MORE layers, MORE sounds, MORE strings, yeah! 

 It is possible to control the legato speed with Vienna Instruments with using the Start Offset controller.

DG

 Well the speed of legato would be nice to have more variations, yes.  Like in a pp line to have a slower but not actually portamento legato would be good I agree. 

However what I was saying was that legato speed is far less important than the overall sound of the strings in the mix, which is just not as good with LASS.  They sound more artificial to me in just the sustaining tone.  So those extra legatos don't make much difference, especially since you have portamento as well as sul/bowed legato with the Appassionata.  But I do agree it would be good to have more variations.

@William said:

However what I was saying was that legato speed is far less important than the overall sound of the strings in the mix, which is just not as good with LASS.  They sound more artificial to me in just the sustaining tone.  So those extra legatos don't make much difference, especially since you have portamento as well as sul/bowed legato with the Appassionata.  But I do agree it would be good to have more variations.

I don't agree with that. Listen to some wobbly old grainy and harsh string recordings from 60 years ago or more, and the performance shines over the bad tone. The emotion is conveyed by the performance. As far as LASS is concerned, you can work wonders with LASS and the proper EQ for each section. However, I didn't enter this thread to debate tone vs. performance, it's apples and oranges as far as what I was saying re legato variability. I simply would like new VSL strings with better legato. 

DG: thanks I meant to point that out but forgot - you can vary the legato quite a lot with the start offset parameter, and for me it works very well, especially for instruments in a mix you get quite a bit of variation with that IMO.

I think there is no end to what we "want" and can ask for.... but there's no doubt, a dimension orchestral strings, and actually firstly before that a dimension appassionata strings (with all or most of the articulations of the orchestral strings) is a **must** :-) I think it's pretty safe to say nearly everyone would agree with that. ? We already have a "first chair" with the solo instruments, one could argue that the chamber strings is like a Divisi C for the orchestral strings (though not appassionatas), all that is needed is orchestral strings divisi a and b, and then the full set for the appassionata strings, which the solo strings can also be used as a first chair for those combinations as well with some extra eq and a bit of a stronger tuning on the humanise setting to blend with the appassionata strings.

@garylionelli said:

I don't agree with that. Listen to some wobbly old grainy and harsh string recordings from 60 years ago or more, and the performance shines over the bad tone. The emotion is conveyed by the performance. As far as LASS is concerned, you can work wonders with LASS and the proper EQ for each section. However, I didn't enter this thread to debate tone vs. performance, it's apples and oranges as far as what I was saying re legato variability. I simply would like new VSL strings with better legato. 

 "tone" ?  I am not talking about audio quality particularly, I am talking about the extremely complex nature of recorded strings and especially what happens to strings when they are turned into samples.  This is a combination of the quality of recording equipment, the venue in which the recording was made, the post production quality, the methods used in programming samples, AND the quality of the performance involved in the recording.  All of these come together to produce some really horrible sounds with certain libraries - like the old Garritan string library.  Remember that?  I wasted a thousand bucks on that thing.  I never used it once in any mix.  Or think of Miroslav Vitous.  Beautiful playing and recording but about six samples per instrument stretched all over the range in one velocity layer.  But with the Mirosalv, the basic sound was very good and as a result it could be used in a certain cleverly limited way. 

However, all string libraries in the past suffered from the artificiality of the most audible sound, the sound that people sitting in a movie theater or watching a DVD notice and are bombarded by far more than variations in legato connections  -  the sustaining, long-held note.  The legato is of course essential to avoid spliced-together sustains - something I am all too painfully aware of - but the variations between legato are far less significant in a final mix than the quality of recording/musicality/programming which is an extremely complex Gestalt that either sounds good or horrific.  So that is what I am talking about when I hear sweeping statements like "... if I can't control the legato speed to get the performance right,  then it's useless..."    It is absurd to say a sound that is far more natural, complex, better played, better recorded and more beautiful in every definable way is "useless."  

@garylionelli said:

I don't agree with that. Listen to some wobbly old grainy and harsh string recordings from 60 years ago or more, and the performance shines over the bad tone. The emotion is conveyed by the performance. As far as LASS is concerned, you can work wonders with LASS and the proper EQ for each section. However, I didn't enter this thread to debate tone vs. performance, it's apples and oranges as far as what I was saying re legato variability. I simply would like new VSL strings with better legato. 

 "tone" ?  I am not talking about audio quality particularly, I am talking about the extremely complex nature of recorded strings and especially what happens to strings when they are turned into samples.  This is a combination of the quality of recording equipment, the venue in which the recording was made, the post production quality, the methods used in programming samples, AND the quality of the performance involved in the recording.  All of these come together to produce some really horrible sounds with certain libraries - like the old Garritan string library.  Remember that?  I wasted a thousand bucks on that thing.  I never used it once in any mix.  Or think of Miroslav Vitous.  Beautiful playing and recording but about six samples per instrument stretched all over the range in one velocity layer.  But with the Mirosalv, the basic sound was very good and as a result it could be used in a certain cleverly limited way. 

However, all string libraries in the past suffered from the artificiality of the most audible sound, the sound that people sitting in a movie theater or watching a DVD notice and are bombarded by far more than variations in legato connections  -  the sustaining, long-held note.  The legato is of course essential to avoid spliced-together sustains - something I am all too painfully aware of - but the variations between legato are far less significant in a final mix than the quality of recording/musicality/programming which is an extremely complex Gestalt that either sounds good or horrific.  So that is what I am talking about when I hear sweeping statements like "it's totally uselsss without the exact legato speed"   which is absurd. 

I disagree. Over and out.

Competing with HS?

EWQL moved their studio to Hollywood to make us believe the term "Hollywood Strings" equals Hollywood.

Does it mean Vienna should move their studio to ... Vienna to perform a similar trick? They are already there. It's EWQL who are catching up.

@el-russo said:

Competing with HS?

EWQL moved their studio to Hollywood to make us believe the term "Hollywood Strings" equals Hollywood.

Does it mean Vienna should move their studio to ... Vienna to perform a similar trick? They are already there. It's EWQL who are catching up.

That is exactly what I was thinking when I read this thread - the real question is how will the other string libraries compete with VSL?

So far the others are emphasizing the few things that VSL did not emphasize, mainly divisi.  So in other words they don't compete, but try to do something else.  If VSL creates a divisi supplement to Appassionata strings, it will eliminate that niche-marketing. The divisi could also address the multiple legato speeds that were being discussed.  One of the most desirable additions would be the ability to connect notes in several different unison lines with different recorded legatos that had slight variations in speed.   

That's a good way of clearing up this discussion :) ! I agree. They don't compete how can they!? But divisi is something that would take VSL to another level altogether in my opinion than where it already is. In fact, I would go so far as to say it's essential as the next step, again, only in my humble opinion. :)

The BIG question is ...

Will VSL develop some NEW strings that will expand, and complement their current line of Strings Libraries ?  

I hope the answer is YES .

How about it VSL guys, can we get a "yay" or a "nay" on a dimension strings with divisi sections in both mute and unmuted with all the articulations of the orchestral strings, in the style of appassionata libraries!!! 

I don't think it's too much of a tall order!! You can probably knock that over in a weekend!  [:P]

Seriously though I think it would take VSL to the next level... a whole new ball park so to speak.

Since I don't trust using Vienna around for fear of losing my key again, I'm looking for new libraries, something like the Special Edition bu with no dongles. Does HS use dongles?

Cesare

Well why don't you sell your tv, all your studio equipment, your fridge, and everything else you own since that too may be stolen and you won't get it back. Or you could get insurance on your house and business contents and then if it gets stolen you will get money to replace it...

The Vienna key is a license stored on a physical key, therefore it's a physical item, like your keyboard, or your computer. You don't go complaining to Apple or Dell if your computer is stolen as though they are obligated to replace it, so it is with the vienna key. It's like a diamond ring: small but still valuable!

One thing that continues to amaze me in these types of threads is a seemingly unspoken but underlying assumption that products with "Hollywood" or "Cine" = good, while products that emulate a traditional orchestra = bad.  As stated before, having played classical double-bass, VSL comes as close to what I actually do (with the bow in particular).  There are reasons - as was mentioned earlier in the thread - why HS does not include mock-ups of Vivaldi, Mozart, and similar styles.

VSL reminds me very much of what participating in an orchestra actually sounded like.  There simply is far more to the orchestral world than that trademark "Hollywood" sound.  Side note: what will happen when popular tastes change, and the lush Hollywood sound is no longer "in"?