@Guy Bacos said:

Do you think it's very respectful advertising Spiritoso on the VSL forum? Personally I would have no use for such library, using bits of phrases. It wouldn't take too long before you are repeating the same phrases over and over, even though they sound good.

how happy can VSL be with this discussion? Not much I think.

Then again, it's all healthy debate. I suspect there's a few psychological factors at work here in people's replies. For example, people choose VSL over others firstly because they prefer the sound, so they are probably going to defend it vigourously on this forum, and why not. Also however, whatever people buy costs so much money that they will desperately want to believe that it's the best, so that they won't feel stupid, and I suspect this is also a factor at play. And another layer here is that clearly there's quite a few great products all which have a different sound, each valid in different ways for different uses or a different end impact.

So, everyone's right in their own way.

Although I would say, the more emotional someone's response is, the more likely it is that they are expressing opinions and feelings and not being entirely rational.

@dagmarpiano said:

Then again, it's all healthy debate. I suspect there's a few psychological factors at work here in people's replies.....

 .....whatever people buy costs so much money that they will desperately want to believe that it's the best, so that they won't feel stupid, and I suspect this is also a factor at play. 

I don't think you should underestimate people's choices.

@dagmarpiano said:

Then again, it's all healthy debate. I suspect there's a few psychological factors at work here in people's replies.....

 .....whatever people buy costs so much money that they will desperately want to believe that it's the best, so that they won't feel stupid, and I suspect this is also a factor at play. 

I don't think you should underestimate people's choices.

I agree, and in my own case as I'm an expert when it comes to strings, I don't think my opinion can just be written off as the Emperor's Old Clothes....!

DG

@dagmarpiano said:

Then again, it's all healthy debate. I suspect there's a few psychological factors at work here in people's replies.....

 .....whatever people buy costs so much money that they will desperately want to believe that it's the best, so that they won't feel stupid, and I suspect this is also a factor at play. 

I don't think you should underestimate people's choices.

I agree, and in my own case as I'm an expert when it comes to strings, I don't think my opinion can just be written off as the Emperor's Old Clothes....!

DG

I only said it might be a factor. Maybe a tiny factor, amongst a tiny minority of insecure composers. Not you of course DG and Guy 😊 Or me.

Well instead of arguing here are some excerpts that show why I like the Appassionata strings so much - it is great to be able to work with these sounds!  This has them in a big orchestral setting and also features the Dimension Brass:

@William said:

Well instead of arguing here are some excerpts that show why I like the Appassionata strings so much - it is great to be able to work with these sounds!  This has them in a big orchestral setting and also features the Dimension Brass:

It sounds great, but the strings are the weakest part of this arrangement in terms of pure realism.  The brass, harp, percussion and woods sound pretty real to me.  The strings are a lot better than, say, 80s Korg M1 strings for example, but they're still quite a way from sounding convincingly real.  My feeling is that they sound about 70% real - pretty good but with giveaways every time there's anything fast or with an attack, or even the performance legato which sounds a bit not right. I think Hollywood Strings, in the right hands, can get a bit more realistic - like 72%. Still nothing like adding real players (the way I always work is to add real players from the Roal Liverpool Philharmonic to samples to try get the best of both, and it really makes a difference).

Another thing I'd say is that for professional use, this is better than using a real but amateur orchestra - it's very in tune etc.. 

There's also more to a library than realism anyway. There's the kind of sound you want. HS gives you this distant, lush sound which can be big, sweeping and epic, but it's not much use if you want a kind of raw, driving power.  You might even say that HS has a slightly tacky, overly sweet quality, if you wanted to be unkind. But that's the Hollywood sound.

On this arrangement, VSL does sound more pure and honest than HS would be, but slightly less realistic.

That's MY BIG FAT OPINION. For what it's worth.

Hope you enjoyed the analysis.

😊

The strings sound fantastic, what lets them down is that you have this large ensemble and the attack times are always the same. If you had a first chair plus three or even four divisi for sample purposes, it would be an absolute game changer. For me VSL is still the best of the best, and at the top of their game. I bet you they will release a dimension strings soon, it's just the naturally obvious choice and I think there are a lot of people out there who will buy it and they know it. I'm one. Then the existing libraries will essentially become like "lazy" libraries, where you just go to those patches when you want the full ensemble in a single string line, or repetitions or whatever, but in my opinion, I personally unless I were very pressed for time and quality didn't matter as much, would always go to the extra trouble of using divisi libraries. I would buy the La strings right now except I am sure VSL will do something like this sooner or later (hoping sooner!) and I would then find that the LA library would be never used compared with the sound of Vienna which I much prefer. I'm sure with the VI pro software they could make amazing presets and matrices that would enable one to play various combinations of the sections of each instrument. I just hope they do the appassionata strings a la divisi *FIRST*, before the orchestral strings, not second, and complete the articulations to match or exceed orchestral strings while they are doing it. I couldn't think of a better move artistically and strategically than this for VSL right now... It would be a game changer, although like I say they are hardly behind anyone else overall. but it's time to match this very important step in sampling: divisi sections for strings. It's the natural progression, and VSL will do it best and biggest no doubt. 

Hi Guy! hope you are well!

@mpower88 said:

Hi Guy! hope you are well!

Miklos my good friend! 😊

@dagmarpiano said:

(the way I always work is to add real players from the Roal Liverpool Philharmonic to samples to try get the best of both, and it really makes a difference

Let's hear an example of that on this thread.

@dagmarpiano said:

(the way I always work is to add real players from the Roal Liverpool Philharmonic to samples to try get the best of both, and it really makes a difference

Let's hear an example of that on this thread.

Well since you ask... I produced this album with that method:

http://gothic-storm.co.uk/Site/Epic_Choral.html

 The tracks have been remixed and remastered by someone better than me since these versions but I can't find a link that will work outside the UK.

How was this financed?  Is this for an actual film or something?  This could all have been done with pure samples since it sounds absolutely the same as every other current "epic" film score sampled or )pointlessly) live by Zimmer.   Same treatment of choir, same chugga-chugga stuff in the strings, same parallel minor chords, same treatment of taiko-like drum accents, etc. etc. etc.  I have all heard this about a MILLION TIMES NOW. 

Like my analysis too? 

Here is another one I did recently I would love to hear an A/B of your HS or LASS.   

Dagmarpiano, your music is typical epic cliché. Sorry man. Yes, it has a big sound and appropriate for the genre, but it is very one dimensional, let's be honest. I wouldn't know where to start explaining the differences.

It is what it is.  this is music created purely to be in the centre of mainstream gothic movie trailer music, for use around the world in film and TV advertising. It's a commercial product not a piece of art, although this style does have its fans.

Also, it's not exactly 'my music', in that I'm very much a minority composer amongst several great composers.  I only wrote 3 tracks on that album there (my name is Dan Graham).

Tracks by me and from my library have been used in many different hollywood trailers and on many TV adverts around the world, and has therefore made good money (at least $200,000 so far!) and been successful in achieving its aims - to be a successful product in a very specific niche.  I only put it up because I thought you were curious about the sound of combining samples with live playing William, I wasn't expecting an outburst of derision! 

I do other stuff which is more personal to me, for more artistic reasons.  For example, this 1880s/1960s time-travel concept pop album from last year, which I put a lot of time and care and love into, and it lost money:

(The whole album is free on that site in 11 different videos).

I think you William may have the impression I was being critical of your arrangement. I thought it was great and said so. I only said that it sounded unrealistic on some note attacks and fast bits.  By that, I just meant it sounded nice but like samples not real strings.  You seem to have taken it personally.

Btw your Komme Susser Todd sounds pretty amazing in itself. In realism terms? It's getting very close to sounding real. 90% real maybe.  There's almost no giveaways, except the performance legatos sound a bit too perfect, and overall, and you have to concentrate to get this, it has a slight sense of sounding over controlled and stiff.  Tbh if you just added a bit of room noise (the actual background hiss of a room, plus a tiny bit of noises like players moving around), it would probably be very hard to spot as samples, apart from maybe being just a bit too perfect.  This must be the product of a huge amount of detailed selection of articulations and automation.  It doesn't sound like that when you lean your elbow on the sus-vib patch!

 sorry dagmarpiano - I got a little carried away. 

I am disturbed once again that a really artistic project like your Magic Theater loses money while the cliches sell big.  I like that Magic Theater a lot and wish you could have a success with it. 

It doesn't bother me at all that the artstic project loses money and cliches sell big.  If I do artistic things AND cliches then I get artistic freedom and financial success which anyone can aspire to. It just happens that the art and money are for two different things!

Your prime examples were loud epic cues. My only point is that it's not the kind of music to make a comparison with VSL strings. I really don't care about all the rest, and I'm sure you're a fine musician.

@dagmarpiano said:

It doesn't bother me at all that the artstic project loses money and cliches sell big.  If I do artistic things AND cliches then I get artistic freedom and financial success which anyone can aspire to. It just happens that the art and money are for two different things!

I won't offer my habitual caring and collegial review of the "epic" tracks on that other page, or your fellow "great" composers on that project, purely because I am not floating my own music here for direct comparison as William and Guy do.

However, staying on topic, I wholeheartedly agree with William - and I was indirectly spot-on in my previous entry on this thread - that at least good money didn't get wasted as it contributed to the continued livelihood of some musicians, for a recording that would have sounded 90% of what it is, done with samples. The missing 10% would never have been picked up by the ears of directors/producers that go for this stuff. You say it has sold 200,000 over?... State of affairs gentlemen...

Another thing. The meta-data on your library tracks begin with the initials DG. Coincidence? [;)]

@dagmarpiano said:

It doesn't bother me at all that the artstic project loses money and cliches sell big.  If I do artistic things AND cliches then I get artistic freedom and financial success which anyone can aspire to. It just happens that the art and money are for two different things!

 That may be true.

However, there are many people throughout history who may have disagreed with you.

For example - did you ever read anything that the greatest Russian filmmaker - in fact, the greatest filmmaker of all  time according to Ingmar Bergman (who ought to know since he is probably the next candidate)  -  Andrei Tarkovski -   wrote? 

Here is an excerpt -

"If you try to please audiiences, uncritically accepting their tastes, it can only mean that you have no respect for them: that you simply want to collect their money; and instead of training the audience by giving them inspiring works of art, you are merely training the artist to ensure his own income.  For their part, the audience will continue, their contentment unalloyed, to feel they are right - seldom a well-founded conviction. The failure to develop the audience's capacity to criticize our own judgement is tantamount to treating them with total indifference." 

Interesting quote William.