Trip:my Chamber strings don't exhibit this problem (EXS version),though sometimes I need to tweak the Performance Tool settings .It's clear that something needs sorting,but once it is,you'll find the Chamber Strings will be equal to the Solo ones.I assume your Solo Strings library is for Kontakt also? Hold that syringe!

I've done my own test with Chamber Strings (Gigastudio version).

www.Members.aol.com/jbacal/Chamber_Strings_legato_test.mp3

The test has the following short scale examples:

1) VI-6 perf-leg slow (out of the box-dry)

2) VI-6 perf-leg fast (out of the box-dry)

3) VI-6 perf-leg fast + VI perf-leg f mixed at 70% (out of the box-dry)

4) VI-6 perf-leg fast _2Lay + VI perf-leg p+f_2Lay mixed at 70% (I ramped the modwheel control from 0 to 127 and then back to 0. I also ramped the expression control on the last note from 127 to 0)

5) same as #4 but with a touch of Pantheon medium hall reverb.

All these examples sound noticeably smoother than Trip's example. The only way I could replicate his sound was to use the VI-6 perf-leg slow+RC instrument with the Modwheel all the way at 0. This puts the release time at .1 seconds. A more normal release time is .3 seconds. I don't know how the Kontakt version handles release times but if you can set them to .3 seconds you'll be a lot happier.

Please note that one additional thing you can do to smooth things out even more is to lower the velocity of the notes that have a more pronounced "bump." I didn't do this on these examples here, but it can make a big difference.

Hope this sheds a little more light on things.

Best,
Jay

Don't the Chamber strings require exactly the right pal., files? If he's not using "Hor" pal., files that would be trouble correct?

Dave Connor

wow, those strings sound very alive and moving. Just hearing an ascending/descending scale has got me impressed! Hmmm, where's my wallet????

Seriously, I might be coming into some money in the near future and I'm very impressed with these strings. As a Kontakt 2 owner, I'm really enjoying the bundled VSL sounds but they leave me wanting more legato instruments (the French Horn legato is friggin' fabulous Herb!)

-Dave

Allowing discussion, even if not entirely positive, is very appreciated! We can be realistic -- hopefully -- when evaluating other users comments, and it's good to have dialog about the products. It doesn't dissuade from purchase, at all. Even the contrary.

Hi Trip - Just heard your scale demo - sounds like there is something wrong with the settings in legato tool - are you sure, your using the right
legato preset for chamber strings in the performance tool?

/Bjarne

I've spent a lot of time trying to get to the bottom of this problem. I'm pretty sure it is related to the release times.

Yes, I'm using the right .pal file in the tool. I can get the +RC instrument to sound pretty good by increasing the release time with the mod wheel.

Using vi 6 perf legato f slow as an example:

2. The release time set by default as indicated by the release time knob in Kontakt is 3 seconds which is obviously too long, but the actual release time in use (indicated by the little blue light round the edge of the dial) is more like 180ms.
3. I notice in the GS gig file for the same instrument that the release time is set to 300ms.
4. Turning the release time control has no effect. Adding a midi-cc control to the release time seems to work for most note transitions but not for a few - they jump back to the 200ms setting.

I'm going to post a message in the Kontakt forum to see if anyone else can replicate the problem.

Many thanks to everyone who has posted. JBacal, your recording was a great help. I agree yours sounds smoother than mine, although even on yours the transition to the fourth note doesnt sound quite right to me, especially in the second scale.

Trip

And is the tool set for Horleg and not Legato?

@Christian Marcussen said:

And is the tool set for Horleg and not Legato?

Yes, I dont even have legato enabled since both my VSL products are horizon.

- horlegato works perfectly for me in solo strings
- the GS version of chamber strings legato instruments has longer release times than in the .nki versions (which I'm using) and sound better
- I cant modify the release times for legato instruments in Kontakt (though I can for normal instruments)

I wonder why the release times are set differently in the .nki files? I wonder why I cant edit the damn settings [:)] I'll get to the bottom of this if it kills me.

Trip

The problem is this: The release times in the .nki instruments are set to 168ms, whereas in GS they are set to 300ms. 300m sounds a lot better.

My problem with editing the release times was down to my own inexperience of Kontakt editing.

Interestingly, in solo strings the release times for legato instruments are set to 100ms for Kontakt and 191ms for GS. I've been using instruments converted from the GS versions so never noticed a problem, whereas with chamber strings I used the downloaded .nki files.

Trip

Herb and VSL-
I'm glad you have changed your tune, and are apparently allowing criticism of your products now - hopefully not just to spite my comment earlier in this thread. This was not the case with the soprano sax thread, 2nd violin thread, and many others.
I'm still waiting for an update to saxophones 1 so I can use the soprano sax forte performance legatos in my music (don't make me post another demo showing that this patch has WAY too much portamento to be usable). I have been very quiet about this subject for many months now, but since you are open to this type of thing now, I will ask for it: Have you corrected the soprano sax forte performance legato?
thanks,
Mvanbebber

@mvanbebber said:

Herb and VSL-
I'm glad you have changed your tune, and are apparently allowing criticism of your products now - hopefully not just to spite my comment earlier in this thread. This was not the case with the soprano sax thread, 2nd violin thread, and many others.
I'm still waiting for an update to saxophones 1 so I can use the soprano sax forte performance legatos in my music (don't make me post another demo showing that this patch has WAY too much portamento to be usable). I have been very quiet about this subject for many months now, but since you are open to this type of thing now, I will ask for it: Have you corrected the soprano sax forte performance legato?
thanks,
Mvanbebber

You _are_ looking for confrontation, ain't you?

When will you understand that "allowing for criticism" and "not sharing your opinion" are two different things? When there's nothing wrong, there's nothing "to correct"; tastes differ, and so do our preferences, that's all.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Dietz-
No, I am certainly NOT looking for a confrontation. You mistake my persistence for angst. However, I certainly AM looking for some accountability on the part of VSL. The only reason Herb finally admitted a problem with this patch was because of my persistence on the subject. It is also why I was banned from the forum - being persistent is not the same as causing problems. I would stop being persistent if VSL would admit the problem and take measures to correct it. Herb did admit the problem, and I thanked him and shut myself up about it because I thought it was going to get fixed. Now you are again denying the problem which has already been admitted to? According to Herb there definitely IS a problem with this patch:

"Our expirience with the soprano is: performance legato recording works perfectly in piano, works also perfectly in forte in a slided style, but does not work in normal forte legato." -Herb (on soprano sax thread)

Since this is the case, customers should have been made aware of this ahead of time, otherwise they lose confidence in future VSL products. Look, I really, really need a usable forte legato soprano sax patch for my music - I'm not just trying to cause problems. The fact that this was not possible to create, would have been nice to know before I purchased the product. It also is an expected business practice. I hope you can see where I'm coming from as a customer and composer...
thanks for listening,
Mvanbebber

"Experience" is not a "problem". I see no sense in your repeated attempts to suggest other users a "loss of confidence" in our products.

Why revitalise the discussion? We are talking about different _opinions_ on a subject, not about right or wrong. You would like it to have it one way - Herb and Michael dicided for the other.

Please rest this case.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Give the guy a medal.

@Dietz said:

"Experience" is not a "problem". I see no sense in your repeated attempts to suggest other users a "loss of confidence" in our products.

Why revitalise the discussion? We are talking about different _opinions_ on a subject, not about right or wrong. You would like it to have it one way - Herb and Michael dicided for the other.

Please rest this case.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Dietz-
Either you just don't get it, or you do understand and are pretending you don't. Herb has admitted the problem, but you have denied it. It appears that this problem will never be corrected, so I therefore bought a product that was misreprested by VSL. As it stands now I will not ever purchase a VSL product again. I rest my case about the soprano sax forte performance legato, and you will not hear from me again on this issue. (or see my money again, for that matter.)
thanks,
Mvanbebber

Of course that's a pity.

OTOH you are constantly mixing up two or three different topics, drawing far- fetched conclusions from that, accusing the Vienna Symphonic Library of all kinds of outrageous ill meanings - and it's not possible to make you follow a factual train of thoughts. I capitulate.

All the best,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

@mvanbebber said:

Dietz-
Either you just don't get it, or you do understand and are pretending you don't. Herb has admitted the problem, but you have denied it. It appears that this problem will never be corrected, so I therefore bought a product that was misreprested by VSL. As it stands now I will not ever purchase a VSL product again. I rest my case about the soprano sax forte performance legato, and you will not hear from me again on this issue. (or see my money again, for that matter.)
thanks,
Mvanbebber

If I may be so bold, your tone, Mvanbebber is atrocious. Every single post. Just because you are hiding behind your computer is no excuse to have such bad manners. And thread hijacking is not cool either. This should-if anything-be a private email conversation. It's like you are 15 and are threatening to "go public" with a claim just because you love to see yourself in print.

Metrobot-
Bad manners? I think a definitive example of that is your last insulting post. I didn't ask for your opinion on this subject. You and others at VSL just can't get past my abruptness (that's just how I am) in my threads and look at the content of what I'm saying:
There is a problem with the soprano sax forte legato patch, admitted several times by Herb. I would just like to have known about this before hand, and now that I have purchased the product, I would like the problem to be fixed. But, Dietz is now denying the problem. You see my frustration?
All I ask is that you look at the content of what I'm saying, not how I'm saying it - I never mean to be rude, I'm just direct and that comes off to the VSL people as rudeness. Look at the content of what I'm asking, and I think you will agree that I have a valid point. Nobody at VSL (except Herb) has done that.
Continually arguing about the way I say things is counter-productive, and has the appearance (to me anyways) of trying to be deceptive and evasive, and does not get to the root of the argument I am making.
thanks,
mvanbebber

Here we go again ... sorry for the starter of this thread that now definitively seems to be hi-jacked by a completely different topic.

I'm not denying anything. Please point me to the thread where the statement concerning "a problem" (in the sense of: an objective error) has been made. To my best knowledge, you were argueing with Herb and Michael Hula about a matter of _taste_, and decisions that have been made during the production of one of our instruments. This is what I'm constantly trying to tell you, to no avail.

Allthough you just wrote me a private e-mail announcing that you would leave these pages in a huff, you are here again with the same accusations, and so I can only repeat what you don't want to hear: You just don't _like_ what others considered to be a possible way of doing things.

This is a pity, but like it or not: We are all dealing with personal preferences here, not with absolute truth. For obvious reasons, we can just _try_ to fulfill everyone's wishes concerning sampled instruments, and we will fail in the achievement this goal from time to time, that's for sure.

... you will most certainly write other flames, accusing me and the Vienna Symphonic Library of terrible customer service - but what could we do more than taking the time to answer your allegations again and again (even half an hour before midnight). Asking for the perfect treatment, you seem to forget that there are human beings on the other side of the fence, too.

/Dietz