I've spent a lot of time trying to get to the bottom of this problem. I'm pretty sure it is related to the release times.

Yes, I'm using the right .pal file in the tool. I can get the +RC instrument to sound pretty good by increasing the release time with the mod wheel.

Using vi 6 perf legato f slow as an example:

2. The release time set by default as indicated by the release time knob in Kontakt is 3 seconds which is obviously too long, but the actual release time in use (indicated by the little blue light round the edge of the dial) is more like 180ms.
3. I notice in the GS gig file for the same instrument that the release time is set to 300ms.
4. Turning the release time control has no effect. Adding a midi-cc control to the release time seems to work for most note transitions but not for a few - they jump back to the 200ms setting.

I'm going to post a message in the Kontakt forum to see if anyone else can replicate the problem.

Many thanks to everyone who has posted. JBacal, your recording was a great help. I agree yours sounds smoother than mine, although even on yours the transition to the fourth note doesnt sound quite right to me, especially in the second scale.

Trip

And is the tool set for Horleg and not Legato?

@Christian Marcussen said:

And is the tool set for Horleg and not Legato?

Yes, I dont even have legato enabled since both my VSL products are horizon.

- horlegato works perfectly for me in solo strings
- the GS version of chamber strings legato instruments has longer release times than in the .nki versions (which I'm using) and sound better
- I cant modify the release times for legato instruments in Kontakt (though I can for normal instruments)

I wonder why the release times are set differently in the .nki files? I wonder why I cant edit the damn settings [:)] I'll get to the bottom of this if it kills me.

Trip

The problem is this: The release times in the .nki instruments are set to 168ms, whereas in GS they are set to 300ms. 300m sounds a lot better.

My problem with editing the release times was down to my own inexperience of Kontakt editing.

Interestingly, in solo strings the release times for legato instruments are set to 100ms for Kontakt and 191ms for GS. I've been using instruments converted from the GS versions so never noticed a problem, whereas with chamber strings I used the downloaded .nki files.

Trip

Herb and VSL-
I'm glad you have changed your tune, and are apparently allowing criticism of your products now - hopefully not just to spite my comment earlier in this thread. This was not the case with the soprano sax thread, 2nd violin thread, and many others.
I'm still waiting for an update to saxophones 1 so I can use the soprano sax forte performance legatos in my music (don't make me post another demo showing that this patch has WAY too much portamento to be usable). I have been very quiet about this subject for many months now, but since you are open to this type of thing now, I will ask for it: Have you corrected the soprano sax forte performance legato?
thanks,
Mvanbebber

@mvanbebber said:

Herb and VSL-
I'm glad you have changed your tune, and are apparently allowing criticism of your products now - hopefully not just to spite my comment earlier in this thread. This was not the case with the soprano sax thread, 2nd violin thread, and many others.
I'm still waiting for an update to saxophones 1 so I can use the soprano sax forte performance legatos in my music (don't make me post another demo showing that this patch has WAY too much portamento to be usable). I have been very quiet about this subject for many months now, but since you are open to this type of thing now, I will ask for it: Have you corrected the soprano sax forte performance legato?
thanks,
Mvanbebber

You _are_ looking for confrontation, ain't you?

When will you understand that "allowing for criticism" and "not sharing your opinion" are two different things? When there's nothing wrong, there's nothing "to correct"; tastes differ, and so do our preferences, that's all.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Dietz-
No, I am certainly NOT looking for a confrontation. You mistake my persistence for angst. However, I certainly AM looking for some accountability on the part of VSL. The only reason Herb finally admitted a problem with this patch was because of my persistence on the subject. It is also why I was banned from the forum - being persistent is not the same as causing problems. I would stop being persistent if VSL would admit the problem and take measures to correct it. Herb did admit the problem, and I thanked him and shut myself up about it because I thought it was going to get fixed. Now you are again denying the problem which has already been admitted to? According to Herb there definitely IS a problem with this patch:

"Our expirience with the soprano is: performance legato recording works perfectly in piano, works also perfectly in forte in a slided style, but does not work in normal forte legato." -Herb (on soprano sax thread)

Since this is the case, customers should have been made aware of this ahead of time, otherwise they lose confidence in future VSL products. Look, I really, really need a usable forte legato soprano sax patch for my music - I'm not just trying to cause problems. The fact that this was not possible to create, would have been nice to know before I purchased the product. It also is an expected business practice. I hope you can see where I'm coming from as a customer and composer...
thanks for listening,
Mvanbebber

"Experience" is not a "problem". I see no sense in your repeated attempts to suggest other users a "loss of confidence" in our products.

Why revitalise the discussion? We are talking about different _opinions_ on a subject, not about right or wrong. You would like it to have it one way - Herb and Michael dicided for the other.

Please rest this case.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Give the guy a medal.

@Dietz said:

"Experience" is not a "problem". I see no sense in your repeated attempts to suggest other users a "loss of confidence" in our products.

Why revitalise the discussion? We are talking about different _opinions_ on a subject, not about right or wrong. You would like it to have it one way - Herb and Michael dicided for the other.

Please rest this case.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Dietz-
Either you just don't get it, or you do understand and are pretending you don't. Herb has admitted the problem, but you have denied it. It appears that this problem will never be corrected, so I therefore bought a product that was misreprested by VSL. As it stands now I will not ever purchase a VSL product again. I rest my case about the soprano sax forte performance legato, and you will not hear from me again on this issue. (or see my money again, for that matter.)
thanks,
Mvanbebber

Of course that's a pity.

OTOH you are constantly mixing up two or three different topics, drawing far- fetched conclusions from that, accusing the Vienna Symphonic Library of all kinds of outrageous ill meanings - and it's not possible to make you follow a factual train of thoughts. I capitulate.

All the best,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

@mvanbebber said:

Dietz-
Either you just don't get it, or you do understand and are pretending you don't. Herb has admitted the problem, but you have denied it. It appears that this problem will never be corrected, so I therefore bought a product that was misreprested by VSL. As it stands now I will not ever purchase a VSL product again. I rest my case about the soprano sax forte performance legato, and you will not hear from me again on this issue. (or see my money again, for that matter.)
thanks,
Mvanbebber

If I may be so bold, your tone, Mvanbebber is atrocious. Every single post. Just because you are hiding behind your computer is no excuse to have such bad manners. And thread hijacking is not cool either. This should-if anything-be a private email conversation. It's like you are 15 and are threatening to "go public" with a claim just because you love to see yourself in print.

Metrobot-
Bad manners? I think a definitive example of that is your last insulting post. I didn't ask for your opinion on this subject. You and others at VSL just can't get past my abruptness (that's just how I am) in my threads and look at the content of what I'm saying:
There is a problem with the soprano sax forte legato patch, admitted several times by Herb. I would just like to have known about this before hand, and now that I have purchased the product, I would like the problem to be fixed. But, Dietz is now denying the problem. You see my frustration?
All I ask is that you look at the content of what I'm saying, not how I'm saying it - I never mean to be rude, I'm just direct and that comes off to the VSL people as rudeness. Look at the content of what I'm asking, and I think you will agree that I have a valid point. Nobody at VSL (except Herb) has done that.
Continually arguing about the way I say things is counter-productive, and has the appearance (to me anyways) of trying to be deceptive and evasive, and does not get to the root of the argument I am making.
thanks,
mvanbebber

Here we go again ... sorry for the starter of this thread that now definitively seems to be hi-jacked by a completely different topic.

I'm not denying anything. Please point me to the thread where the statement concerning "a problem" (in the sense of: an objective error) has been made. To my best knowledge, you were argueing with Herb and Michael Hula about a matter of _taste_, and decisions that have been made during the production of one of our instruments. This is what I'm constantly trying to tell you, to no avail.

Allthough you just wrote me a private e-mail announcing that you would leave these pages in a huff, you are here again with the same accusations, and so I can only repeat what you don't want to hear: You just don't _like_ what others considered to be a possible way of doing things.

This is a pity, but like it or not: We are all dealing with personal preferences here, not with absolute truth. For obvious reasons, we can just _try_ to fulfill everyone's wishes concerning sampled instruments, and we will fail in the achievement this goal from time to time, that's for sure.

... you will most certainly write other flames, accusing me and the Vienna Symphonic Library of terrible customer service - but what could we do more than taking the time to answer your allegations again and again (even half an hour before midnight). Asking for the perfect treatment, you seem to forget that there are human beings on the other side of the fence, too.

/Dietz

Dietz-
OK, aside from the fact that "private" emails are supposed to be just that, you also blatantly misinterpreted what I said in that not-so-private email. I never said I was going to leave these pages in a huff. I said I was not happy at having my intelligence insluted. But, once again, you are not talking about what I am saying, but HOW. Please, Dietz, I beg of you to get to the content of what I'm saying.
About the CONTENT of what you are saying: here is a direct quote from Herb on the soprano sax thread. (By the way, I already posted this several posts ago.):

"Our expirience with the soprano is: performance legato recording works perfectly in piano, works also perfectly in forte in a slided style, but does not work in normal forte legato." -Herb (on soprano sax thread)

So, you can see that I am not argueing about "taste" - VSL was clearly NOT ABLE to do something (namely create a normal forte soprano legato), and Herb admitted not being able to do it. Michael Hula also admitted not being able to do it because of time limitations. If this is not an objective error (of both technical and business decisions), I don't know what is.
I don't think you guys have bad customer service, you have outstanding customer service in all other areas. Once again, I am not making allegations, just pointing to things that have already been admitted and asking for corrections. Look, I'm not the only one who thinks this, in fact, I didn't even start the thread on the soprano sax legato thing, there were many others who all felt the same way (check the thread). They just gave up arguing it, and I have not. Shall I post a demostration of the flaws in the said patch?
-mvanbebber

|| : - : ||

After reading ALL the sop sax threads, I can safely say that you're the last person that can claim people aren't reading what you are writing. You COMPLETELY glossed over the rest of Herb's explination.
=========================
To use the legato patch for fast movements is of course absolutely nonsense. This patch works only for slower movents.

Our expirience with the soprano is: performance legato recording works perfectly in piano, works also perfectly in forte in a slided style,
but does not work in normal forte legato.

Why? In most of the intervall steps - exactly during the intervalls - a short overtone appeared, therefore it was impossible to extract working legato samples.

That's why we did the performance-marcato-forte patch, where the intervalls are articulated with the tongue (sorry don't know the right english term), and we prepared the glissando patch for a portamento forte style.
So in this case we had to accept that there are simple physical restrictions,
but tried to offer all possible alternatives we could see.

I think, that we sometime forget too fast, that all these samples were performed by real musicians on anologue instruments.

And Mvanbebber, at last I have to say to you:
Making rashly "Junior-Highschool-Comparisons-Statements" is rude and ignorant.

Herb

===========

from reading this and listening to all the demos I can find I know:
A: you're trying to use the wrong patch for the wrong thing and getting frustrated(rightly so)
B Instead of adapting and using the library you purchased to it's full extent you're complaining about what really boils down to a difference of opinion over the labeling of the articulation
C: Dietz is trying to express to you what I pointed out in B, but instead of listening you're using circular arguments to point the finger right back at him and VSL
D. You are very intelligent, know a lot about music and sampling but for some reason you've got tunnel vision on this issue.

Expand your horizons a little, try out layring the patches together or converting them to modwheel as some of the other users have done. Make it a challenge for yourself to write a piece that HAS to use that patch, rather than making it a hinderence. See what you can do with it.

cmpsr2000-
Believe me, I read all of the posts by Herb many times and fully understand them. Herb poses what is known as a "workaround" to substitute for a real forte legato. This is not acceptable, and if you had the library you would hear that it is no substitute (nothing can be.) Why would you substitute marcato in place of legato, like Herb suggests? Do you know what those terms are? They are basically opposites - not viable substitutes for one another.
And saying that this is a dispute over the naming of a patch is completely erroneous. You are "begging the question", to use a canon of debate. You are assuming the legato patch exists, and we are just arguing over what it is called - not the case.
Also, I am not trying to use the wrong patch for the wrong thing, the "right" patch simply does not exist. What I have done for my mockups of jazz tunes is just used the _sus patches, which do not sound like legato at all, but at least play long notes. But the whole reason I bought the library is for VSL's excuisite performance legato, which they were unable to create. Keep in mind that this is the only instrument that they have ever released without being able to create a true legato, so it is quite an anomaly in that way, and I'm more than happy with their other products.
thanks,
mvanbebber

P.S.- How could you have listened to all the demos? I removed them from the file-hosting service many months ago? To which demos are you referring?

@mvanbebber said:

........and you will not hear from me again on this issue. (or see my money again, for that matter.)
thanks,
Mvanbebber

If only that was true [:(] Please start another thread if you want to carry on with this; I have no desire to wade through all this and then find that it is all OT.

DG

@mvanbebber said:

........and you will not hear from me again on this issue. (or see my money again, for that matter.)
thanks,
Mvanbebber

If only that was true [:(] Please start another thread if you want to carry on with this; I have no desire to wade through all this and then find that it is all OT.

DG

DG-
You do not make decions about what is kosher to talk about, so I will thank you to leave your opinions to yourself. Also, I will not remain silent when people either: 1.) Ask me questions about this subject, or 2.) Make false statements. 3.) Make insulting remarks.
thanks,
Mvanbebber