Herb,

There *isn't* any portamento except for a couple of notes in the second part; none at all in the scale, but I agree the artifact I'm illustrating does sound like a sort of portamento on notes that are close in pitch. Here is the scale played using the chamber strings legato f slow (no portamento).

http://www.yoyo.org/~steve/cs_legato.mp3">http://www.yoyo.org/~steve/cs_legato.mp3

The +RS instruments are available for kontakt and sound fine when the RS is triggered, but of course that's not legato [;)]

I do appreciate you have better things to do than respond to this sort of thing in the forum. Thankyou.

DG,

I tried increasing the release time but it has very odd effects. I notice that the default release time for vi-6 perf leg f slow is already 3k ms! (This is the kontakt .nki instrument downloaded from vsl.) It certainly doesnt actually take 3 seconds for the note to decay. I'm at a loss on this one.

I take your point about the unrealistic bowing, but the point was to illustrate the blips in the cs version.

I'm clearly in the minority in my opinion on this problem, maybe it's only the kontakt instruments that are funny, or maybe I'm just plain wrong. I'll bow out now, but would still appreciate advice on solving it, by PM if you prefer.

Trip

"RS" was a typo, sorry. I meant "RC".

best
Herb

[RS vs RC]

Aha! The RC makes a big difference, I hadn't tried these before. Many thanks both.

I've got some glitches in this too but I'm going to go away and fiddle before I flaunt my ignorance again.

Trip

ok - your second example sure does sound unlike any of the legato instruments in Pro Ed... is it supposed to make that little jump?

I would also recommend to compare between "fast" and "slow" versions.
Generally the slow version benefits from longer release times.
The editing of the fast version is more compareable to solostrings and Pro Edition stuff.

best
Herb

@Christian Marcussen said:

ok - your second example sure does sound unlike any of the legato instruments in Pro Ed... is it supposed to make that little jump?

I'm relieved somebody else can hear it! I'm also relieved to hear that the Pro Ed instruments dont suffer this problem because I am itching to buy the performance set.

Trip

Trip:my Chamber strings don't exhibit this problem (EXS version),though sometimes I need to tweak the Performance Tool settings .It's clear that something needs sorting,but once it is,you'll find the Chamber Strings will be equal to the Solo ones.I assume your Solo Strings library is for Kontakt also? Hold that syringe!

I've done my own test with Chamber Strings (Gigastudio version).

www.Members.aol.com/jbacal/Chamber_Strings_legato_test.mp3

The test has the following short scale examples:

1) VI-6 perf-leg slow (out of the box-dry)

2) VI-6 perf-leg fast (out of the box-dry)

3) VI-6 perf-leg fast + VI perf-leg f mixed at 70% (out of the box-dry)

4) VI-6 perf-leg fast _2Lay + VI perf-leg p+f_2Lay mixed at 70% (I ramped the modwheel control from 0 to 127 and then back to 0. I also ramped the expression control on the last note from 127 to 0)

5) same as #4 but with a touch of Pantheon medium hall reverb.

All these examples sound noticeably smoother than Trip's example. The only way I could replicate his sound was to use the VI-6 perf-leg slow+RC instrument with the Modwheel all the way at 0. This puts the release time at .1 seconds. A more normal release time is .3 seconds. I don't know how the Kontakt version handles release times but if you can set them to .3 seconds you'll be a lot happier.

Please note that one additional thing you can do to smooth things out even more is to lower the velocity of the notes that have a more pronounced "bump." I didn't do this on these examples here, but it can make a big difference.

Hope this sheds a little more light on things.

Best,
Jay

Don't the Chamber strings require exactly the right pal., files? If he's not using "Hor" pal., files that would be trouble correct?

Dave Connor

wow, those strings sound very alive and moving. Just hearing an ascending/descending scale has got me impressed! Hmmm, where's my wallet????

Seriously, I might be coming into some money in the near future and I'm very impressed with these strings. As a Kontakt 2 owner, I'm really enjoying the bundled VSL sounds but they leave me wanting more legato instruments (the French Horn legato is friggin' fabulous Herb!)

-Dave

Allowing discussion, even if not entirely positive, is very appreciated! We can be realistic -- hopefully -- when evaluating other users comments, and it's good to have dialog about the products. It doesn't dissuade from purchase, at all. Even the contrary.

Hi Trip - Just heard your scale demo - sounds like there is something wrong with the settings in legato tool - are you sure, your using the right
legato preset for chamber strings in the performance tool?

/Bjarne

I've spent a lot of time trying to get to the bottom of this problem. I'm pretty sure it is related to the release times.

Yes, I'm using the right .pal file in the tool. I can get the +RC instrument to sound pretty good by increasing the release time with the mod wheel.

Using vi 6 perf legato f slow as an example:

2. The release time set by default as indicated by the release time knob in Kontakt is 3 seconds which is obviously too long, but the actual release time in use (indicated by the little blue light round the edge of the dial) is more like 180ms.
3. I notice in the GS gig file for the same instrument that the release time is set to 300ms.
4. Turning the release time control has no effect. Adding a midi-cc control to the release time seems to work for most note transitions but not for a few - they jump back to the 200ms setting.

I'm going to post a message in the Kontakt forum to see if anyone else can replicate the problem.

Many thanks to everyone who has posted. JBacal, your recording was a great help. I agree yours sounds smoother than mine, although even on yours the transition to the fourth note doesnt sound quite right to me, especially in the second scale.

Trip

And is the tool set for Horleg and not Legato?

@Christian Marcussen said:

And is the tool set for Horleg and not Legato?

Yes, I dont even have legato enabled since both my VSL products are horizon.

- horlegato works perfectly for me in solo strings
- the GS version of chamber strings legato instruments has longer release times than in the .nki versions (which I'm using) and sound better
- I cant modify the release times for legato instruments in Kontakt (though I can for normal instruments)

I wonder why the release times are set differently in the .nki files? I wonder why I cant edit the damn settings [:)] I'll get to the bottom of this if it kills me.

Trip

The problem is this: The release times in the .nki instruments are set to 168ms, whereas in GS they are set to 300ms. 300m sounds a lot better.

My problem with editing the release times was down to my own inexperience of Kontakt editing.

Interestingly, in solo strings the release times for legato instruments are set to 100ms for Kontakt and 191ms for GS. I've been using instruments converted from the GS versions so never noticed a problem, whereas with chamber strings I used the downloaded .nki files.

Trip

Herb and VSL-
I'm glad you have changed your tune, and are apparently allowing criticism of your products now - hopefully not just to spite my comment earlier in this thread. This was not the case with the soprano sax thread, 2nd violin thread, and many others.
I'm still waiting for an update to saxophones 1 so I can use the soprano sax forte performance legatos in my music (don't make me post another demo showing that this patch has WAY too much portamento to be usable). I have been very quiet about this subject for many months now, but since you are open to this type of thing now, I will ask for it: Have you corrected the soprano sax forte performance legato?
thanks,
Mvanbebber

@mvanbebber said:

Herb and VSL-
I'm glad you have changed your tune, and are apparently allowing criticism of your products now - hopefully not just to spite my comment earlier in this thread. This was not the case with the soprano sax thread, 2nd violin thread, and many others.
I'm still waiting for an update to saxophones 1 so I can use the soprano sax forte performance legatos in my music (don't make me post another demo showing that this patch has WAY too much portamento to be usable). I have been very quiet about this subject for many months now, but since you are open to this type of thing now, I will ask for it: Have you corrected the soprano sax forte performance legato?
thanks,
Mvanbebber

You _are_ looking for confrontation, ain't you?

When will you understand that "allowing for criticism" and "not sharing your opinion" are two different things? When there's nothing wrong, there's nothing "to correct"; tastes differ, and so do our preferences, that's all.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library

Dietz-
No, I am certainly NOT looking for a confrontation. You mistake my persistence for angst. However, I certainly AM looking for some accountability on the part of VSL. The only reason Herb finally admitted a problem with this patch was because of my persistence on the subject. It is also why I was banned from the forum - being persistent is not the same as causing problems. I would stop being persistent if VSL would admit the problem and take measures to correct it. Herb did admit the problem, and I thanked him and shut myself up about it because I thought it was going to get fixed. Now you are again denying the problem which has already been admitted to? According to Herb there definitely IS a problem with this patch:

"Our expirience with the soprano is: performance legato recording works perfectly in piano, works also perfectly in forte in a slided style, but does not work in normal forte legato." -Herb (on soprano sax thread)

Since this is the case, customers should have been made aware of this ahead of time, otherwise they lose confidence in future VSL products. Look, I really, really need a usable forte legato soprano sax patch for my music - I'm not just trying to cause problems. The fact that this was not possible to create, would have been nice to know before I purchased the product. It also is an expected business practice. I hope you can see where I'm coming from as a customer and composer...
thanks for listening,
Mvanbebber

"Experience" is not a "problem". I see no sense in your repeated attempts to suggest other users a "loss of confidence" in our products.

Why revitalise the discussion? We are talking about different _opinions_ on a subject, not about right or wrong. You would like it to have it one way - Herb and Michael dicided for the other.

Please rest this case.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library