Hi Daryl, may I send you something which I do with the legato strings to check too?

I am really curious coz it's so strange that I can never really work with them out of the box.... unlike the wind and brass which work so flawless.

Thanks! [[;)]]

Frankie

I'll check this all tomorrow evening...

DG

I had also noticed that its somewhat a challenge to get string legatos to sound authentic unless you're layering it with the other sections. When writing several pieces lately using VI-14 or VC-8 legato performance patches, it had sounded quite synthetic until I added some brass and wind instruments on top. Luckily this hasn't proven a major problem to me, as I've yet to be in a situation where I've needed legato string sections playing solo.

OK, I've sent 3 files to Frankie, so it's now out of my hands [:)]

DG

Please don't check it with the Pro edition but with the Horizon Opus 1 files... (pleeze...)

I would really be glad to pay for a 1.1 version upgrade that would solve the mentioned problems with the legato strings.

Cheers and thanks for your otherwise excellent products!

@Peter Roos said:

Please don't check it with the Pro edition but with the Horizon Opus 1 files... (pleeze...)

I'm afraid that to do that will require me to re-plumb my system. I probably won't have time until the New Year.

DG

Hi all, Daryl and I did a little comparison between the Pro Ed & Opus Bundle and we both suspect having less samples per octave in Opus maybe one of the culprits.

Now here is the MIDI file I did with the sustained ff patch (non-legato), which sounds beautiful IMHO :

MIDI file
Opus 1 violin ff

Here is what it sounds when it's played with the legato patches (please note there are two notes too short now with the legato patch that make the melody disjointed. This is the sequence's problem, NOT VSL's problem, please be reminded! [:P] )

Opus 1 violin legato f
Pro Ed violin legato f

It is very obvious that the infamous "sharp timbre changing between notes" is less or actually not quite noticeable with the Pro Ed version, which makes us think less sample per octave in the Opus Bundle might have caused the problem.

Now it seems the only "quick" way to smooth the legato is to use the +RC patch instead so as to link the notes more fluently. Again, you will notice the Pro Ed sounds more convincing (as also since Daryl was changing the mod wheel data throughout the melody to add some nice flow, whereas I only set 40 to CC1 throughout)

Opus 1 violin legato +RC
Pro Ed violin legato +RC

I am not sure if there are more ways to help with Opus 1's deficiency. But one thing for certain, it won't sound this bad when it's a fully arranged sequence! [:D] I just did these demo clips solo and dry so as to show what we are really talking about.

Back to the MIDI file which I originally sequenced. It's really an irony to me.... that the sustain ff patch does sound more "legato" to the legato patch to me... [[:|]]

Thanks so much for your attention, and especially thanks Daryl for his time to render the mp3's for me with his Pro Ed! [[;)]]

I know there are veteran users out there that has better ways of using the legato patches! Looking forware to hearing good news! hehe

Cheers,
Frankie

As an addendum to all that I see that one of the problem is the change in timbre between the E and A strings. The only way round this is by using other patches such as sul A, but I can't remember whether or not they are in Opus. I also did a comparison with a couple of repeat notes thrown in for good measure and this improved things.

Regarding the MIDI file (and no disrespect intended to Frankie) the actual playing regarding velocity and overlaps was not very accurate, so things could be improved with this as well [:O]ops:

DG

@DG said:

Regarding the MIDI file (and no disrespect intended to Frankie) the actual playing regarding velocity and overlaps was not very accurate, so things could be improved with this as well

Oh yes I am aware of that actually! Sorry I should have mentioned this in my previous post too. One of my intentions was to test to see if I can record something with the legato violins right out of the box... that is... I did it with only one take and did NOT edit and tweak any MIDI data. And it seems it's quite impossible to do so. Unlike the wind and brass counterparts, which I usually can do some wonderful passages with just one take, perhaps just a little velocity edit to one or two notes.

And sorry Daryl I forgot about the repeated notes sample you sent to me! [:P]

And there is no Sul-A patch in Opus too.

Thanks! [[;)]]

Frankie

Here is another aexample of the huge timbre change that occurs in Opus1 legato (note the clip cuts off at the end but you get the idea).

http://www.dragonwind.org/Files/music/opus1_vi_legato.mp3

I tried layering it with Violas bit it still stood out.

[:(]

Chris

@dragonwind said:

Here is another aexample of the huge timbre change that occurs in Opus1 legato (note the clip cuts off at the end but you get the idea).

http://www.dragonwind.org/Files/music/opus1_vi_legato.mp3

I tried layering it with Violas bit it still stood out.

[:(]

Chris

Hmm... I think it sounds great? [:O]ops:

@Christian Marcussen said:

Hmm... I think it sounds great? [:O]ops:

There are some timbre differences between the repeated notes actually, which is noticeable to my ears. [[;)]]

HOWEVER! And (insert your favourite VSL drum rolls here) thanks to Daryl I think I've found the trick now! [:D] Actually it was something that I neglected to check with what Daryl sent back to me.... my bad... anyway, let me show you first.

MIDI file
violin legato - take 2

See if this sounds more convincing than my previous versions? Please note that this was a ONE-TAKE recording and I DID NOT tweak or edit anything. What I did was alternately using the legato patch and the "repeat" patch (using KS note D1, which you can check from my MIDI file) With some trials & errors I found I can avoid those nasty timbre differences with ease using this method.

Since this is an un-edited recording, I am sure it can sound A LOT better if I spend some time to work on both CC1 and CC11.

Thanks so much to DG.... you saved my day and made those 3GB worth of samples useful again! [H]

Cheers,
Frankie

@dragonwind said:

Here is another aexample of the huge timbre change that occurs in Opus1 legato (note the clip cuts off at the end but you get the idea).

http://www.dragonwind.org/Files/music/opus1_vi_legato.mp3

Hi Chris,

As inspired by what Daryl told me.... I think you can fix this easily by using the "repeat" patch right on the repeated notes (which is KS note D1). I found the original sustained forte patch does sound a little brighter than the legato notes, which causes the occassional timbre difference. The "repeat" patch has a darker sound than the original forte patch, which fits more with the legato patch IMHO

Though, this won't fix the case when the performance tool forces consecutive notes playing on difference strings that cause timbre difference.... which is a shame to us Opus users hehe since we have no control on using which strings to play.

Cheers,
Frankie

Hmm. Well I don't know if that will work in my cas becuase I am using EXS format and the Legato p-f patch is what I was using there. I could set the sustain patch to play in legato format from the sampler which would fix some problems but I would loose the subtle changes that the true legato patch introduces. Perhaps if just layered with the sus patch it would sound much better.
Chris

Hi Chris, the "repeat" patch I mentioned is within the legato patch actually, and has nothing to do with the normal sustain patch. In your performance tool, when set to legato mode, in where the "Function Keys" are, you should be able to find a "Repetition Trigger", that's the KS key to play the "repeat" patch.

Hope this helps. Or do you mind sending the MIDI file to me, I will see if I can make it sound better... hehe, still a little excited finding a better way to work with the legato patches. [[;)]]

Cheers,
Frankie

@Frankie Ho said:

Hi Chris, the "repeat" patch I mentioned is within the legato patch actually, and has nothing to do with the normal sustain patch. In your performance tool, when set to legato mode, in where the "Function Keys" are, you should be able to find a "Repetition Trigger", that's the KS key to play the "repeat" patch.
Cheers,
Frankie

Yes, you should be using the repeat patch anyway, as you don't really want a start note.

DG

Frankie and Daryl, that is a very interesting test you have run. It is interesting that the Pro legatos for strings do sound significantly better straight away than the ones in Opus...

And this method of triggering the 'repeat' patch is interesting... your last examples doing it this way really did sound significantly better - useable in fact. [:D]

It does sound like a rather inconvenient way to work though? Hmm... what if one reassigned those 'repeat' samples to where the other 'timbrally challenged' ones are... would this solve the problem, would the instrument still work? Is it possible to get this more functional legato patch and decrease the ram burden a tad?

It is really strange to me that the legatos for string ensembles should be so problematic, when all those solo brass/winds sound so good - I thought the fact that they are large ensembles would have made it easier to mask any difficulties rather than in those exposed solos...

@jc5 said:

It does sound like a rather inconvenient way to work though? Hmm... what if one reassigned those 'repeat' samples to where the other 'timbrally challenged' ones are... would this solve the problem, would the instrument still work? Is it possible to get this more functional legato patch and decrease the ram burden a tad?

Unfortunately everything is geared to circumstance, so each solution would be different. FWIW I could "tidy up" this line in much less than a minute, which is not a huge amount of time when you consider how long programming takes.

DG

@jc5 said:

It is really strange to me that the legatos for string ensembles should be so problematic, when all those solo brass/winds sound so good - I thought the fact that they are large ensembles would have made it easier to mask any difficulties rather than in those exposed solos...

Coz wind and brass instruments only have a single tube instead of 4 different strings! [:D]

Anyway, using the "repeat" patch is quite an easy workaround for me. You only need to spend a little time to check which legato notes causing timbre difference and replace them with the repeat notes, usually it will work. The only drawback is I don't have another hand to control CC11 now.... but I can draw it back easy afterwards though hehe.

Cheers,
Frankie

@Frankie Ho said:

The only drawback is I don't have another hand to control CC11 now.... but I can draw it back easy afterwards though hehe.

Cheers,
Frankie

You could always use a volume pedal or breath controller [[:|]]

DG