@DG said:

Regarding the MIDI file (and no disrespect intended to Frankie) the actual playing regarding velocity and overlaps was not very accurate, so things could be improved with this as well

Oh yes I am aware of that actually! Sorry I should have mentioned this in my previous post too. One of my intentions was to test to see if I can record something with the legato violins right out of the box... that is... I did it with only one take and did NOT edit and tweak any MIDI data. And it seems it's quite impossible to do so. Unlike the wind and brass counterparts, which I usually can do some wonderful passages with just one take, perhaps just a little velocity edit to one or two notes.

And sorry Daryl I forgot about the repeated notes sample you sent to me! [:P]

And there is no Sul-A patch in Opus too.

Thanks! [[;)]]

Frankie

Here is another aexample of the huge timbre change that occurs in Opus1 legato (note the clip cuts off at the end but you get the idea).

http://www.dragonwind.org/Files/music/opus1_vi_legato.mp3

I tried layering it with Violas bit it still stood out.

[:(]

Chris

@dragonwind said:

Here is another aexample of the huge timbre change that occurs in Opus1 legato (note the clip cuts off at the end but you get the idea).

http://www.dragonwind.org/Files/music/opus1_vi_legato.mp3

I tried layering it with Violas bit it still stood out.

[:(]

Chris

Hmm... I think it sounds great? [:O]ops:

@Christian Marcussen said:

Hmm... I think it sounds great? [:O]ops:

There are some timbre differences between the repeated notes actually, which is noticeable to my ears. [[;)]]

HOWEVER! And (insert your favourite VSL drum rolls here) thanks to Daryl I think I've found the trick now! [:D] Actually it was something that I neglected to check with what Daryl sent back to me.... my bad... anyway, let me show you first.

MIDI file
violin legato - take 2

See if this sounds more convincing than my previous versions? Please note that this was a ONE-TAKE recording and I DID NOT tweak or edit anything. What I did was alternately using the legato patch and the "repeat" patch (using KS note D1, which you can check from my MIDI file) With some trials & errors I found I can avoid those nasty timbre differences with ease using this method.

Since this is an un-edited recording, I am sure it can sound A LOT better if I spend some time to work on both CC1 and CC11.

Thanks so much to DG.... you saved my day and made those 3GB worth of samples useful again! [H]

Cheers,
Frankie

@dragonwind said:

Here is another aexample of the huge timbre change that occurs in Opus1 legato (note the clip cuts off at the end but you get the idea).

http://www.dragonwind.org/Files/music/opus1_vi_legato.mp3

Hi Chris,

As inspired by what Daryl told me.... I think you can fix this easily by using the "repeat" patch right on the repeated notes (which is KS note D1). I found the original sustained forte patch does sound a little brighter than the legato notes, which causes the occassional timbre difference. The "repeat" patch has a darker sound than the original forte patch, which fits more with the legato patch IMHO

Though, this won't fix the case when the performance tool forces consecutive notes playing on difference strings that cause timbre difference.... which is a shame to us Opus users hehe since we have no control on using which strings to play.

Cheers,
Frankie

Hmm. Well I don't know if that will work in my cas becuase I am using EXS format and the Legato p-f patch is what I was using there. I could set the sustain patch to play in legato format from the sampler which would fix some problems but I would loose the subtle changes that the true legato patch introduces. Perhaps if just layered with the sus patch it would sound much better.
Chris

Hi Chris, the "repeat" patch I mentioned is within the legato patch actually, and has nothing to do with the normal sustain patch. In your performance tool, when set to legato mode, in where the "Function Keys" are, you should be able to find a "Repetition Trigger", that's the KS key to play the "repeat" patch.

Hope this helps. Or do you mind sending the MIDI file to me, I will see if I can make it sound better... hehe, still a little excited finding a better way to work with the legato patches. [[;)]]

Cheers,
Frankie

@Frankie Ho said:

Hi Chris, the "repeat" patch I mentioned is within the legato patch actually, and has nothing to do with the normal sustain patch. In your performance tool, when set to legato mode, in where the "Function Keys" are, you should be able to find a "Repetition Trigger", that's the KS key to play the "repeat" patch.
Cheers,
Frankie

Yes, you should be using the repeat patch anyway, as you don't really want a start note.

DG

Frankie and Daryl, that is a very interesting test you have run. It is interesting that the Pro legatos for strings do sound significantly better straight away than the ones in Opus...

And this method of triggering the 'repeat' patch is interesting... your last examples doing it this way really did sound significantly better - useable in fact. [:D]

It does sound like a rather inconvenient way to work though? Hmm... what if one reassigned those 'repeat' samples to where the other 'timbrally challenged' ones are... would this solve the problem, would the instrument still work? Is it possible to get this more functional legato patch and decrease the ram burden a tad?

It is really strange to me that the legatos for string ensembles should be so problematic, when all those solo brass/winds sound so good - I thought the fact that they are large ensembles would have made it easier to mask any difficulties rather than in those exposed solos...

@jc5 said:

It does sound like a rather inconvenient way to work though? Hmm... what if one reassigned those 'repeat' samples to where the other 'timbrally challenged' ones are... would this solve the problem, would the instrument still work? Is it possible to get this more functional legato patch and decrease the ram burden a tad?

Unfortunately everything is geared to circumstance, so each solution would be different. FWIW I could "tidy up" this line in much less than a minute, which is not a huge amount of time when you consider how long programming takes.

DG

@jc5 said:

It is really strange to me that the legatos for string ensembles should be so problematic, when all those solo brass/winds sound so good - I thought the fact that they are large ensembles would have made it easier to mask any difficulties rather than in those exposed solos...

Coz wind and brass instruments only have a single tube instead of 4 different strings! [:D]

Anyway, using the "repeat" patch is quite an easy workaround for me. You only need to spend a little time to check which legato notes causing timbre difference and replace them with the repeat notes, usually it will work. The only drawback is I don't have another hand to control CC11 now.... but I can draw it back easy afterwards though hehe.

Cheers,
Frankie

@Frankie Ho said:

The only drawback is I don't have another hand to control CC11 now.... but I can draw it back easy afterwards though hehe.

Cheers,
Frankie

You could always use a volume pedal or breath controller [[:|]]

DG

@DG said:

You could always use a volume pedal or breath controller [[:|]]

Tried that... but I am not that good at coordinating my hands/feet/mouth (!)...

Hehe, or else I might be a drummer or something else already instead of a composer! [:D]

Cheers,
Frankie

@DG said:

Yes, you should be using the repeat patch anyway, as you don't really want a start note.

DG

Well now I guess I should have read the manual [:O]ops: as I never knew that existed. Sure enough this totally changed everything. Here is the line but this time I played it with the KS for repeated note.
Chris

http://www.dragonwind.org/Files/music/opus1_vi_legato2.mp3

Hi,

I'm wondering about the legato discussion. Is there a special way to handle the violins in comparison to the woodwind legato?

Regards

My Pro Edition arrived a few days ago. So I was checking the legato patches and realized the VI-14_perf-leg_f in Opus 1 is NOT really the standard legato patch but the sul patch (on the same string) in the Pro Edition.

Man, now that really explains why all the timbre differences in Opus 1 forte legato violins we have been discussing.

I tried using the standard forte legato violins of Pro Edition, and it worked as beautifully as what Daryl showed me.

Perhaps VSL should take a look into this? Since the manual of Opus 1 (both PDF and printed versions) didn't state clearly the forte violin legato instrument is a "sul" one.

Cheers,
Frankie

I have been watching this thread with some interest because I also have Opus 1 (and Solo Strings). Is there any consensus as to how to make the strings sound their best? Thx, OJ [[;)]]

Herb,
Your violin ensemble piece is very good indeed. Could I achieve the same results with Opus 1? Your piece is for solo violin layered with a 14-Violin ensemble. Could you go into a little more detail about this?
I also listened to the pieces by Beat Kaufmann for solo violin and cello + your pieces for viola, cello and bass ensembles - all terrific examples of what can be done with VSL strings.
Can one get the stacatto and trills with layering and keyswitching? Again, a little more detail about how to achieve such an outstanding effect would be much appreciated. Thanks so much, Orijames [[;)]]

@Frankie Ho said:

My Pro Edition arrived a few days ago. So I was checking the legato patches and realized the VI-14_perf-leg_f in Opus 1 is NOT really the standard legato patch but the sul patch (on the same string) in the Pro Edition.

Man, now that really explains why all the timbre differences in Opus 1 forte legato violins we have been discussing.

I tried using the standard forte legato violins of Pro Edition, and it worked as beautifully as what Daryl showed me.

Perhaps VSL should take a look into this? Since the manual of Opus 1 (both PDF and printed versions) didn't state clearly the forte violin legato instrument is a "sul" one.

Cheers,
Frankie

What is the official reply on this issue? Will there be updates for Opus 1 users?

Actually it's not only the violin, as far as I have tried, the viola and cello forte legato patches are the "sul" instruments from the Pro Edition too, instead of the normal "forte" patch.

I do think, IMHO, the Opus strings should contain the "forte" legato instruments instead though.

Thanks so much! [[;)]]

Cheers,
Frankie