EXS24 Vs: Giga .Logic Vs: gigastudio Does it really matter

[leperlord]

over 2 weeks of research and my head hurts
& i still have not made a decision

i want to purchase VSL pro & have full use of the performance tool

I`m stuck between formats though . EXS Vs: Giga & then the programs
that run them , logic Vs: Gigastudio

Each time my mind is made up , i hear sopmething that switches
my direction

What is the real skinny here m8`s ?

i`ve heard EXS24 cant touch giga on keyswitching/disc streaming /
zoning & layering , & in EXS only 1 virtual instrument @ a time seems
limiting

then i hear logic is far superior to a oft unstable Gigastudio
for many reasons

Wot`s a guy to do ?

i dont want to spend thousands of dollars on 1 , to realize
i cant do some task etc that i want / need to

If this happens , heres another question

If i commit to Ie EXS , & find i want giga , can i simply use a prog
like Chickensystems translator to faithfully translate EXS to giga , or
reverse ?

Can life really be so simple ? Or would i miss alot in translating ?

Cheers

[PolarBear]

How many computers you got? How many PCs, how many Macs? Or will you purchase all new computers? The general consense it's a bit less expensive going the PC way. However with VSL you don't miss out much either way I think, shown by the many demos not only in the demo section done on both platforms.

I think the best decision is to get to determine which platform suits your workflow the best. There are plugins that are only availible for one platform so far, which doesn't mean to rule one out, because there are also people who have multi-platform setups with sequencer on Mac and additional Giga boxes (PCs that run GigaStudio) connected to them.

What is coming to your mind when thinking about features you need?

There are translators like ChickenSys, however with the VSL samples the safest way that is also saving you literally days of work is to get a sidelicense for the disered library. It also ensures that every feature possible with the samples and the sampler is used and works.

Hope this helps,
PolarBear

[plowman]

Everything Polar Bear said.

Do you own a sequencer already? You're comparing Giga to EXS. Giga is a stand-alone playback program. EXS is a small wing of Logic, and it cannot be purchased alone.

If you've already got a sequencer you've learned and enjoy, you can't go too far wrong with Giga. If you've never used Logic before, just make time for a learning curve.

Personally I take turns preferring one or the other in about three month intervals. Keymap, an EXS editor, is due out soon. That'll probably swing me back to an EXS preference. But the moral of the story is, it's a less gigantic decision once you're on the other side. And as PB notes, it is very common for people here to own both, so no decision you make will exclude you from adding on later.

Speaking for myself, I use intense research to put off spending money. These decisions present themselves as "all or nothing, right choice or wrong choice," but the reality is just not like that.

And for the record, eventually both at one point will have you shaking your head, thinking you made the wrong choice. But you didn't.

If you want, tell us about your specific goal.

[PolarBear]

@Plowman said:

And as PB notes, it is very common for people here to own both, so no decision you make will exclude you from adding on later.

The only thing that would concern me there are the costs because you generously pay twice for the same things most of the time.

[leperlord]

Fanx m8s

To answer

I have 1 PC .

"there are plugins that are only availible for one platform so far & What is coming to your mind when thinking about features you need?"


So giga n Logic each have seperate yummy plugins exclusive to each ?

can I view the list somewhere ?

Features I need .

Well i`m very newb , so i`m not sure yet , but
keyswitching/disc streaming / , i hear giga is superior in that way , is
this true & how much difference ?
zoning & layering , & in EXS only 1 virtual instrument @ a time seems
limiting ? How well does exs do these things . is diff noticable ?
& will this 1 instrument @ a time be upgraded soon ?

I honestly dont mind the days of work , if chicken sys translator will faithfully translate EXS to Giga . I cant afford 2 formats & it sounds as if
each will have something i want .

" Do you own a sequencer already? "

Cubase sx 3 . I`ve used Kontakt 2 as well (this wont allow perf tool though
in pro library ?


Plowman , i also use intense reserach b4 spending cash [:)]

My specific goal , a hybrid of music , VSL is just 1 , big , part
of it .

Classical elements mixed with dark ambient/world/goth . The quality
of Vienna is vital to me . & that perf tool

PS is the Platinum 5.5x version of logic too limited right now
to use for Vienna . Will anyone else make a prog to run exs on pc ?

" Keymap, an EXS editor, is due out soon "

If i buy exs now , will that be an add on ?

I know i have more questions , i think charactewrs are limited here tho ?

Cheers

[plowman]

"keyswitching/disc streaming / , i hear giga is superior in that way."

It may be superior in a spec sheet. I just don't think as most of us use it, this should be a purchase factor. I've never had streaming issues with either.

"in EXS only 1 virtual instrument @ a time seems limiting"

As a rule, Logic does require more set-up for orchestra, particularly if you want to read all the instruments from a standard staff arrangement. If you're used to working with program changes (like from pizz to arco on one track), this is a point in Giga's favor. So Logic's way isn't more limiting. It just takes a little longer to get there.

Again, Logic is a sequencer. You're buying so much more than just EXS. Giga is the radio. EXS is the radio with a car built around it.

"I honestly dont mind the days of work , if chicken sys translator will faithfully translate EXS to Giga."

It will faithfully translate the sample mapping. Consider anything above that a gift. And "Giga Convert" in EXS is no better. You'll get a bare-bones translation. There's a good reason those side licenses are that expensive.

If you've ever met someone who is just learning your native language, then you'll know how well translating programs convert one platform to the next.

Keymap is a third party editor from Redmatica. The built-in editor for EXS is a struggle. In fact, perhaps the clearest advantage to Giga is its editor, which is extremely functional.

If you've already got Cubase, and money is an issue, I think you should be leaning towards Giga. A Mac plus Logic will, on average, add about 1,500 to 2,000 USD more to your final bill.

Happy buying.

[leperlord]

Fanx again

You`s really know your stuff in here

i`m pretty newb to this side of things

i will own a Mac some day...but it may be G 10 + by then hahahaha

So was i right to assume since logic for PC is so old( in computer world)
this will be a limiting factor for me to go EXS ? Makes me wonder why
so many on PC still go EXS . Is this all there will ever be for EXS on a PC ?

May someone be making some other prog soon to run EXS on a pc ?

And is Giga more stable on the pc these days ? Not even 1 yr ago i was
hearing so much flac on Tascam & Giga.....Have they got better ?

This uncertainty of Giga`s stability concerns me . i really hate dealing
with buggy software when i wanna make music . Don`t we all

"It will faithfully translate the sample mapping."

i just got this email from chicken systems , who assure me of an
everything , true , exact translation of EXS to giga ,

What more can i ask them to be certain . And whats beyond sample mapping that should concern me in a translation ?

If i had some exs files to test on translator , ( my friend has a nice
home studio in his basement ..Drool!!!! & hes always sworn by EXS
to me...but i dont see him much...not sure what program he has on EXS even ....) , would there be some way of testing a translation ? would it
be obvious when something was missed ? Or ?

All the time you guys share here is valued n appreciated

Vienna as good as have my dinero , but will it be EXS or logic LOL

Cheers

[PolarBear]

@leperlord said:

So giga n Logic each have seperate yummy plugins exclusive to each ?
can I view the list somewhere ?

There is no list unfortunetaly. Perhaps something worth to work out at times. I was referring especially to Altiverb which is most missed by PC users right now because it's yet only Mac exclusive (not only bound to Logic tho, jsut needs MacOS) - there is a PC version announced afaik for the end of the year tho. However with Gigastudio you get an almost equally stuffed convolution engine, Gigapulse. It has some other features and doesn't use the same impulses, thing they got in common: they need horsepower. Which leads me to the next point: Running the VSL C.O.P itself needs horsepower and it's hard to give a good advice without knowing the roundabout of money you got to spend. There are more things to purchase than just the sounds to get a satisfying result and therefore a little start might sometimes be the wiser decision than jumping right into the crowded sea where everything is new and unknown and the learning curve is biiig.

PolarBear

PS: Third-party tools are hardly ever add-ons to software [;)]

[PolarBear]

@leperlord said:

And whats beyond sample mapping that should concern me in a translation ?

Faith in that it's working! Ha we're both on the topic at the same time it seems.

The EXS version of VSL will only work with the EXS in Logic that is Mac exclusive since Apple bought Emagic which produced Logic before. The PC line was abandoned back then.

[plowman]

The only thing that stopped me from sayng that EXS is not available on any PC system is the off-chance that some sampler I've never used loads EXS natively. Insofar as a separate, dedicated EXS playback on PC, we can't even get that on a Mac. A lot of users here would leap at a separate EXS program on *either* platform, because we could immediately double our orchestras without spending 1,000 USD for a second Logic.

"So was i right to assume since logic for PC is so old( in computer world)
this will be a limiting factor for me to go EXS ?"

The last Logic for PC was 5.5.1. which was released sometime in the summer of 2002. Logic did not incorporate the VSL performance tool until (I'm guessing) 6.2 or higher, at which point, it was entirely Mac. I'm not sure VSL EXS instruments would even be accessible to 5.5.1 on a PC, though I've never tried it.

"And is Giga more stable on the pc these days ?"

Based on my personal experience and the general thrust of the forum posts here, I think Giga on XP is in fact stable. I don't mean that you'll never crash -- it's still a computer. But as a rule, considering what it's doing, it's quite solid.

"And whats beyond sample mapping that should concern me in a translation ?" Keyswitching, crossfading layers, filtering, and enveloping would be the biggest. But if Chicken Sys in on record as saying it does all that... well... okay....

"would there be some way of testing a translation ?"

Hmm. You could try a crossfading (p+f) perf-leg trumpet that uses filters. If Translator can take that EXS instrument and render it successfully on a Giga, then my hat's off to Garth.

"...A little start might sometimes be the wiser decision than jumping right into the crowded sea where everything is new and unknown and the learning curve is biiig."

I quote it because it deserves to be repeated.

Cheers.

[leperlord]

Thanks m8`s

I seem to be out of questions you guys are so good
you managed to shut even me up . LOL

Lots to think about here indeed .

Thats a good test to try plowman ....i love testing things , trying to find alternative ways to get to the same point . This really made me think


Thanks Polarbear n plowman & all in this forum

As Arnold said " I`ll be back "

[leperlord]

I`m back Hahaha


Sitting here thinking.....of the way of testing a translation with chicken
systems like you mentioned plowman .

" You could try a crossfading (p+f) perf-leg trumpet that uses filters. If Translator can take that EXS instrument and render it successfully on a Giga, then my hat's off to Garth. "

I`d love to do such a test , then I could settle the issue once and
for all . I could post my results , then everyone would know for sure
This may save someone headaches and/or money .

So which trumpet set is it i should try , piccolo , trumpet in c
or bass , or trumpet ensemble are all i see on VSL site . & i`m
looking to see if i may just purchase this one you mention plowman .

Could you plz tell me more on how to try crossfading (p+f) perf-leg trumpet that uses filters . D ya mean by perf-leg(performance legato?)

io`ll have to lay out the dinero for the translatur n the VSL dvd
but i`d love to try this

Can ya plz give me some direction on this , n what do i look for
to be sure translator has rendered the EXS instrument on a giga .

Cheers

[Frederick]

I own a Mac G5 and a 2.6 PC - currently not running Giga (but I could). You can get a lot of mileage out of a humble setup like this nowadays. For Logic/exs you need a Mac platform. For Giga you'll need a PC.

Having a sampler like exs that integrates seamlessly into the sequencer can really help the workflow. The streaming works great as well as the performance tool. With exs you won't need to render your audio sample feed from external sources - its all there and treated like recordings. With a Mac G5 w/adequate memory you can easily fill 55-60 instruments with plenty of room left over for 3-4 instances of Altiverb on your busses and multiple EQs and compressors on individual exs and external audio tracks.
Add a PC w/Giga or Kontakt and your instrumentation and mockup choices exponentially increase.

I hope this helps.

Best,

Frederick Russ

[plowman]

At this point, the best thing you could do would be to buy the demo. That will give you identical sounds in both formats. Then you could try "Translator" and see how close the final converrted sound matches the native program.

You'll also get a demo of the performance tool, which you'd need to confirm the final sound of any translated performance instrument.

http://www.vsl.co.at/english/pages/products_%26_shop/extras/new_demo_dvd.htm

[leperlord]

Thanks Frederick

So plowman thats a great price for that dvd .

Will that give me some of those complex filters/layers etc that
you spoke of , that translator may well miss ?

& once translated with translator , is it a matter of aural/listening judgement
to see which sounds better , or with those more complex things you spoke of ,
" try a crossfading (p+f) perf-leg trumpet that uses filters " , will it simply
be a matter of the filters/layers etc...werent translated , so it wont even load , or give an error , or once again just a matter of good ears/aural judgement . in
other words , how can i tell if the translation did a true 1:1 copy & all is intact ?

i really hope this is not a dumbo question .

My experience on this is under 1 year , from learning keyboards , & all the
software . i`m still learning big time . It`s a huge , enjoyable , curve .

My closest to this stuuf i`ve used is ie: synful orchestra/Edirol etc..
Not as involved as Vienna i`d guess .

Thanks for all valued time & patience

[plowman]

"Will that give me some of those complex filters/layers etc that
you spoke of , that translator may well miss ?"

I can't recall if any of the demo sounds uses filters. Again, it's not a common element in VSL patches, and I think it's confined to the brass instruments. I'm not sure what the demo has in this regard.

But any perf-legato sound has numerous samples. It's a worthy test for Translator. And actually, it will be more challenging to get modwheel layers correct. Often the layers (dimensions) are in place, but the wheel must be manually assigned. Personally, I've never had a perfect modwheel translation -- I had to tweak after the fact. "Days of work?" If you're converting the whole library, more like weeks of work. Because the porting over of sheer data isn't that fast, and then you must test each instrument by itself.

And here's the problem you're going to face when it doesn't work: the owner of Chicken Sys --great guy -- will take the name of the file, ask that you send it to him in some format, and then he'll analyze it and perhaps come up with a fix. That takes time. I waited for several months for a pretty basic fix.

After three years with this program, I started to feel like Translator was deemed "close enough" by the company to be released, and now it relies heavily on user feedback for improvement, on a per instrument basis. I understand why this field would demand that.

But I'm a bit saddened that Chicken Sys promises 100% accurate conversions. That simply does not agree with my three years' experience with this product. And hey, I like Translator. I'm glad I have it. It's just that people like you, leperlord, are being lead to buy it with heightened expectations.

"will it simply be a matter of the filters/layers etc...werent translated , so it wont even load , or give an error , or once again just a matter of good ears/aural judgement ."

The answer is, "all of the above." *Most* often, Translator converts the program as best it can and leaves you to play the results. And you need not have a perfect ear to tell that something is wrong, particularly when you look for keyswitches and they're not there, or you move the modwheel doesn't change the sound.

I've never gotten a prompt that says, "Some parameters did not convert." It doesn't give you anything near that.

Lastly, Translator is the single most crash prone program I have ever used in nineteen years of computing. It simply locks, offers some inscrutable prompt, and disappears. Translator on Mac is the only program I have on my Mac that crashes regularly. Its chief benefit is a quick reload. Load, crash, reload, fidget, tweak, crash, reload. Hurray for fast reloads.

My best experiences with Translator came with the Roland, Vitous, and Kurzweil libraries. The simpler the program, the better the conversion.

At this point, leperlord, if you're planning to just convert someone else's library on the sly, you'll get what you pay for. Otherwise, it's best you pick a format and buy it natively. There are better things to do with your musical ability that sweat out issues like this.

Cheers.

[rawmusic]

Perhaps it is just Opus 1/2 that come this way, but I could have sworn that both versions of the samples come on the same DVDs. So all you need is whatever form the perfomance tool takes on GIGA. So, as far as Opus 1/2 is concerned, there is absolutely no translation required since both versions come together.

I have used Chicken Systems Translator and it is good, but not worth spending the time and risk of more time with several hundred thousand samples.

If you already have a PC, then it is really a no brainer. Run GIGA until you can't put off having a mac anymore, and then get a side license (I believe it is this that allows you to run cross platform VSL without buying it all again). Don't forget, that at this point you have all your hard work in two places, and both will be indispensable.

On the mac side...don't be put off by having one sampler instrument per VSL instrument. It is very logical once you do it, and you can save entire setups as templates. Having separate instruments also means that mixing within logic is easy too.

So a G5 can run 40-50 instruments plus reverbs...*sigh* I can manage about 16-20 before having to freeze down tracks to release CPU resources....ah, one day!

[DG]

All of the above [:)]

If you already have Cubase and a PC (and it's fast enough) then there is absolutely no point in getting a Mac and Logic just to run samples. I would recommend either Giga or Kontact. If you later decide to buy another computer, you can then use your current PC as a stand alone sampler whether your new pooter is a PC or Mac.

DG