@DG said:

Not one of his best pieces. It has promise, but there are a fair number of rookie errors in this composition. However, it is still worth playing IMO, but not as much as the "proper" violin sonatas.

Okay! I may correct Brahms rawness in this Sonate, so it meets your expectation, but not today.

.

@DG said:

Not one of his best pieces. It has promise, but there are a fair number of rookie errors in this composition. However, it is still worth playing IMO, but not as much as the "proper" violin sonatas.

Okay! I may correct Brahms rawness in this Sonate, so it meets your expectation, but not today.

.
[:D] [:D] [:D]

DG

Brahms Scherzo may doesn't fully convince because it is part of a pastiche. or maybe his life was a Rondo

[H]

@Angelo Clematide said:

Brahms Scherzo may doesn't fully convince because it is part of a pastiche. or maybe his life was a Rondo

[H]

Nah, it's just badly written in a technical sense.

DG

Let's put these orchestral VIs in a historical context for a moment. It wasn't that long ago when the need for a more convincing orchestra library was painfully needed.

Enter VSL. Their products set a new standard in quality and usability, but even in 2007 they are still improving upon the library to expand the expressive possibilities. We *just* got Appassionata Strings-- quite traditional but an important addition.

If there is a ray of hope in all of this, it is represented by the VSL facility itself-- it's still standing and fully operational. There's no reason why a collection of "extended techniques" couldn't appear at some point. I say, keep constructive converation going and make your requests known. The VSL team has already shown that if there is a need they are willing to address it.

yes, I am irritated by that "pastiche" crack. I get the picture of a snob with his nose in the air sniffing and pronouncing that he hears...

a "pastiche."

PASTICHE THIS!





DG

That was a rookie piece of Brahms? I thought he destroyed all of those. It is shocking how much of his music he destroyed. He should not have destroyed even one scrawled musical note on a napkin at a pub. It would be prized and in a Special Collection today.

And just think - we get ALL of James Horner's music. Every last note... [8o|]

@JimineySnicket said:

Oh Dear! I seem to have started something here........ New Music, always a good topic for a heated conversation and to be honest that's what I wanted to bring it up.

I think the problem, if there is one, is not with the VSL. There is no doubt the VSL library is the best on the planet, the problem has more to do with the recreation of new music with any kind of sample library and the limitations this has.

Actually what I was more interested in when I began this thread is to find out of people were writing original music that perhaps reflected late 20th/early 21st Century compositional processes and orchestration styles. Thankfully a few have come forward with some great examples. Although I have to say it is only a few...... What I have heard is great and I would just like to hear people 'experimenting' with the samples rather then just replicating.

Why reproduce a Brahms violin sonata when you can walk into a shop and buy a million different recordings? Life is just too short....... [:)]

You make some valid points here, but at the same time keep in mind that some of the best composers around today are writing film music. This goes back more to your first post.

@William said:

And just think - we get ALL of James Horner's music. Every last note... [8o|]

Yes, but don't worry my friend.

Civilization will evolve beyond this.

It will just take.....time.



[[:|]] [:P]

Here once more the list of string technique sample missing, techniques you find in every romantic symphony composed in the 19th century, as well in preceding classic:

collé, piqué, jeté, gettato, saltando, sul tasto, ponticello, col legno, sulla tastiere, spicatto, flying spicatto, sul ponticello tremolo, group spicatto, ricochet, battutta, martelé, detaché lancé, accented detaché, detaché porté, group staccato, stopbow, bindungen, sautillé, louré, off-string marcato, ponticello, pizzicato with the left hand.

I think composing and preparing tracks for mixing with a library missing those techniques is not very encouraging. I can't set the subtle diffrences with four sort of long note samples and four sort of short note samples. However for pop music arrangement it is fine, most often there I don't even need the short samples. And I like the VSL library, and don't criticize what they have done so far, only listing what is missing.

This time without inducing under-swelling derogates for William!

.

Very enjoyable thread particularly Angelo and William's intelligent discussion with equally valid points. JWL summed things up perfectly in that VSL may indeed expand it's articulations in their great libraries.

It's fair to say there isn't a lot of modern demos around here (in the scientific sense of the word) but that may be because a lot of people aren't doing that outside of academic circles or if they are they aren't using VSL or aren't posting or whatever. I am interested in hearing any work from any era with VSL or live or whatever as I am a musician and therefore curious.

Can't blame Angelo for saying he needs more techniques to realizie his vision or William for saying it's working just fine for him and even more. Diversity of needs for expression is age old. Mahler when informed that the acoustics were terrible at a certain hall insisted none of his music be peformed there. We all have our standards.

@dpcon said:

Very enjoyable thread particularly Angelo and William's intelligent discussion with equally valid points. JWL summed things up perfectly in that VSL may indeed expand it's articulations in their great libraries.

It's fair to sy there isn't a lot of modern demos around here (in the scientific sense of the word) but that may be because a lot of people aren't doing that outside of academic circles or if they are they aren't using VSL or aren't posting or whatever. I am interested in hearing any work from any era with VSL or live or whatever as I am a musician and therefor curious.

Can't blame Angelo for saying he needs more techniques to realizie his vision or William for saying it's working just fine for him and even more. Diversity of needs for expression is age old. Mahler when informed that the acoustics were terrible at a certain hall insisted none of his music be peformed there. We all have our standards.

Dave, I agree with your valid and balanced assessment. I do hope that the Cube will continue to grow (although my studio budget would disagree at times) and I believe that new additions will appear.

There are a few considerations which much be reconciled, however:

1. What the VSL team has been planning vs what users want, and the time table to effect the appropriate solutions-- where MIR and 64-bit threading remain hot button topics to be fully realized...

2. The relatively short amount of time it has taken to get the current collection to market which translates into financial success... In other words, that the current articulations far exceed that of any other virtual orchestra library out there makes it more than a worthy competitor. Inasmuch as there are those who want such extended techniques, it is just as important for the VSL team to know who of its users would *not* be at all moved by the appearance of such a collection.

3. Of the composers who regularly and faithfully employ such extended techniques in their writings, how many of them are using a virtual orchestra to realize their compositions? There may indeed be enough of us out here to support such a release (including myself)-- but the vast amount of work involved with bringing such a release to market must on some level meet the needs of the 'many' rather than to only the 'few'. That's not to say that such a release would not sell well, but if the collection would sell fewer copies than would pay for its preparation, then there is a legit consideration where "value" and "worth" must be weighed. If there are too few buyers, it becomes a niche collection and therefore could be a very expensive one no matter how "common" such techniques might be in 20th and 21st century composition.

I believe that if the VSL Team got enough of the right kind of feedback they WILL listen. Thing is, there was already a thread where some were discussing the need for more articulations in the Appassionata collection. Speaking of which, I missed a well-established progressive vibrato in Orch I/II and am now working very hard to create different types of matrices where crossfading and corresponding curves must be repeatedly fine tuned to circumnavigate hiccups and phasing where they occur. It's not impossible to do, it's just not always easy.

The point is that the desire for "more" is never ending even where standard articulations are concerned ahead of extended techniques.

4. And speaking of "never ending", isn't it interesting that only string articulations have been discussed here so far?

I look at it as a positive thing. We invested in these collections and it appears that continued development is far from over-- and that's a good feeling. That's why I believe our first reaction ought to be more inquisitive rather than discouraging.

So, if this thread serves as a genuine request for the articulations mentioned, then I wholly support the request for such a collection, fwiw.

Let's face it-- we're insatiable!! [:P]

Well said JWL and I do concur. VSL has done pretty darn good in responding to our various needs and no doubt will continue if the demand is there. So far so good.

Agreed here too. VSL has been really responsive.

I even started a thread mentioning (as others have too) these extended techniques. One only has to look at project sam to see that there is more of a trend toward the contemporary sounds (flute fx & TS 2). One doesn't even need to have these things attatched to crazy performance tools either. Just lots and lots of variations of textures and FX.

Casting my vote again!

Clark

@Angelo Clematide said:

Here once more the list of string technique sample missing, techniques you find in every romantic symphony composed in the 19th century, as well in preceding classic:

collé, piqué, jeté, gettato, saltando, sul tasto, ponticello, col legno, sulla tastiere, spicatto, flying spicatto, sul ponticello tremolo, group spicatto, ricochet, battutta, martelé, detaché lancé, accented detaché, detaché porté, group staccato, stopbow, bindungen, sautillé, louré, off-string marcato, ponticello, pizzicato with the left hand.

.

Angelo-- I for one would love to see even more techniques sampled. The more choice the closer one can come to realizing the infinite expressive possibilites of music.

However at least some of the "missing" string techniques are at least partially covered in some of the string packages including: sul tasto, sul ponticello, col legno, spicatto, ricochet, sul ponticello tremolo. And I suspect that a number of the other techniques can be reasonably approximated with combinations of existing techniques.

Best,
Jay

Great thread, and once again, Angelo, William, Dave, DG, and others, bring wisdom and astute observation from differing perspectives.

My two roubles worth?

The extra articulations would most certainly expand the pallette from which we would go forward with our own work. But I profer the respectful reminder that we are in reality 'playing' every instrument ourselves. 80 or more of them, with our own idea of what we're trying to achieve, and all within a box under our desk. I tend to agree with Angelo that it woud be delightful to have an extensive and formidable range of articulations at our fingertips, (with the probable, consequent, and inherent hardware problems of raw power and speed to deal with as a result), but Bill makes his point well too, and i think there's room for both in this delightful and intelligent discussion.

So as 'solo' performers we have responsibility for all that we produce, and articulatively, we must discern what we want, constructed from either specific samples, or a blend of others with tweaking in that process somewhere. It's also been my experience that sections, and i guess we come to strings here, don't always play an articulation as written, on the button, completely, every time, so that muddies the distinctions further.

So standing back from this, i propose that aside from a 'list' of all available articulations, (in the ideal world), we must also bring sample performance knowledge with us, and create, within a marriage of available samples and our own skills. That means sometimes we're notating a spiccato, but getting a velocity driven staccato. (Not from a sample usage perspective, but comparing with the realities of a live performance.) I've got rather adept at mixing sample articulations to produce an effect (given my current limited resources), and the sometimes slightly 'blurred' articulative distinctions add something to the mix, rather than detracting from a strictly specified technique.

In an ideal scenario we'd have all articulations, but then libraries would be measured in terabytes, and the process of accessing those samples when required would take on promethian proportions, require complex software programming, and probably deal yet another sizeable hit to hardware capability.

From a commercial perspective, i think VSL are on the right track, and optimistically, they've surprised everyone on a regular basis so far, so i wouldn't write off the potential of more articulations to work with in the future. They have, no doubt, commercial priorities to consider, but i'd second the view that VSL customer service, and a shared relationship with users regarding ideas and requests, is of the same high standard as the samples themselves. Consider what would happen if you asked some of the other developers for specific, occasional use articulations. The appassionata strings have to be the hit of the year, and i'm looking forward to seeing and hearing what else the team have up their sleeves.

My examples of this 'differing' articulative assumption are two recordings i have of Beethoven's 5th, 3rd movement, starting bar 140, (repeated section) where the Cellos and KB's saw away enthusiastically at quavers and crotchets in a fairly brisk 3/4. The Berlin Phil version is slightly slower, and more ponderous, invoking a definite impression of a lazy detache with profound velocitistic intent! And the Vienna Phil version is brisker with a clear emphasis on precision, and so shouts a crisp staccato, at least for the quaver runs. (I prefer the Vienna Phil version, as the feel of the passage changes with that precision given it a greater sense of urgency, and motion. And i have to say, the larger string players in this particular recording, conducted by Carlos Kleiber, are having an extremely good day, as the playing is excellent.)
Yet the passage in question is marked with neither detache or staccato, merely forte. Even if the passage were marked accordingly, i'm sure there would still be a difference between the two. So what would i pick? Which is my preference?
And that depends entirely on how seriously i would read a articulation marking within the context of the entire passage, including the preceding and following passages too.
We have musical articulation labels for a reason, but they're labels at the end of the day, and not set on stone as far as performance goes.

Great discussion, and a thoroughly enjoyable and intelligent read.

Regards,

Alex.

@hermitage59 said:

My examples of this 'differing' articulative assumption are two recordings i have of Beethoven's 5th, 3rd movement, starting bar 140...

… Yet the passage in question is marked with neither detache or staccato, merely forte. Even if the passage were marked accordingly, i'm sure there would still be a difference between the two. So what would i pick? Which is my preference?

Mama mia, what you touch there is far above the topic of just having all articulation in virtual format. I don’t even know if we should palaver about that here. For one, I don’t have to be an expert on how to interpret Beethoven, simply because I’m not a conducter for any other music then my own. For two, a conducter has to decide how the apparatus in front of him will play, this down to the last detail. There is a little room to move, respectively how to play music who is not fully indicated. Apart from that, there are dozens of possibilities to play a Détaché, and most often an additional hint is not indicated in Klassik scores, it's rather knowldege of the performers and conducters. I for one was surprised that the détaché in the VSL library are not in connected bowing, because for me détaché means first a flowing, connected bowing with an even sound, and then second accentuated and short variations. There are also a lot of other things involved, like interpretation, tradition, historical facts, how other conducters did it before, what the many confusing indications from different areas stand for etc.. Basically one can say, it is more or less all bow speed, bow pressure etc., I call that short "Speed, Balance Impact" which is also the title of a piece I wrote in the seventies. Also the manual i suggest below to Tanuj explains all the basics from classic to early 20th century, for baroque and renaissance there are other interpretation manuals available.

.


Tanuj, It would be more efficient to study the orchestra bowing techniques as dry matter and then put it right away into music, instead of listening to music by other composer without interpretation reference. Attending an orchestra bowing workshop, even as a viever, can help too. But, since a couple of years there is string section class material available to anyone outside the academy.

For usefulness and theory, there is one manual available in english who explains all orchestra bowing techniques with absolute accuracy, including corresponding score examples. As much as I know, this is the only book available who deals exclusively on the subject "orchestra bowing techniques", but it is very good and covers all techniques. It is teaching material aimed at assisting conductors, composers, educators, and for string section training. The authors are Marvin Rabin, Priscilla Smith, and was produced with the assistance of Vartan Manoogian http://www.music.wisc.edu/faculty/facultybio.jsp?faculty_id=44 concertmaster of the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande resident in Geneva. As much as I know, it is also part of the material for orchestra bowing technique classes and workshops hold worldwide for young string players. As I remember, all the authors where working at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, which is also the original publisher. But I don’t have this material as english edition in my library, but the german edition only.

The english titel of this valuable material is "Guide to Orchestral Bowings Through Musical Styles" and can be ordered at amazon.com or directly from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, link:
http://www.dcs.wisc.edu/LSA/music/ev.htm

We may even have a forumite here who is at the academy in Wisconsin-Madison, or somebody who knows the material.

.

I just had a good idea!

I could make a mp3 with all orchestra bowing technique patched in a row. This segments, and only as long as the particular technique lasts, I would cut out of different compact discs I have. I may leave a rest in between or ad a count in, the technique in use I write in a pdf, nicely numbered. How is that?

.

Sounds great, would be a very handy reference.

I'm again and again impressed by your literacy. (, oder? [:D] )

jo gell

.

@Angelo Clematide said:

I just had a good idea!

I could make a mp3 with all orchestra bowing technique patched in a row. This segments, and only as long as the particular technique lasts, I would cut out of different compact discs I have. I may leave a rest in between or ad a count in, the technique in use I write in a pdf, nicely numbered. How is that?

.

Angelo dear fellow, an excellent idea.
And like Mathis, i am continually surprised and impressed by your literacy, and vast knowledge base.

With respect,

Alex.