@dpcon said:

Very enjoyable thread particularly Angelo and William's intelligent discussion with equally valid points. JWL summed things up perfectly in that VSL may indeed expand it's articulations in their great libraries.

It's fair to sy there isn't a lot of modern demos around here (in the scientific sense of the word) but that may be because a lot of people aren't doing that outside of academic circles or if they are they aren't using VSL or aren't posting or whatever. I am interested in hearing any work from any era with VSL or live or whatever as I am a musician and therefor curious.

Can't blame Angelo for saying he needs more techniques to realizie his vision or William for saying it's working just fine for him and even more. Diversity of needs for expression is age old. Mahler when informed that the acoustics were terrible at a certain hall insisted none of his music be peformed there. We all have our standards.

Dave, I agree with your valid and balanced assessment. I do hope that the Cube will continue to grow (although my studio budget would disagree at times) and I believe that new additions will appear.

There are a few considerations which much be reconciled, however:

1. What the VSL team has been planning vs what users want, and the time table to effect the appropriate solutions-- where MIR and 64-bit threading remain hot button topics to be fully realized...

2. The relatively short amount of time it has taken to get the current collection to market which translates into financial success... In other words, that the current articulations far exceed that of any other virtual orchestra library out there makes it more than a worthy competitor. Inasmuch as there are those who want such extended techniques, it is just as important for the VSL team to know who of its users would *not* be at all moved by the appearance of such a collection.

3. Of the composers who regularly and faithfully employ such extended techniques in their writings, how many of them are using a virtual orchestra to realize their compositions? There may indeed be enough of us out here to support such a release (including myself)-- but the vast amount of work involved with bringing such a release to market must on some level meet the needs of the 'many' rather than to only the 'few'. That's not to say that such a release would not sell well, but if the collection would sell fewer copies than would pay for its preparation, then there is a legit consideration where "value" and "worth" must be weighed. If there are too few buyers, it becomes a niche collection and therefore could be a very expensive one no matter how "common" such techniques might be in 20th and 21st century composition.

I believe that if the VSL Team got enough of the right kind of feedback they WILL listen. Thing is, there was already a thread where some were discussing the need for more articulations in the Appassionata collection. Speaking of which, I missed a well-established progressive vibrato in Orch I/II and am now working very hard to create different types of matrices where crossfading and corresponding curves must be repeatedly fine tuned to circumnavigate hiccups and phasing where they occur. It's not impossible to do, it's just not always easy.

The point is that the desire for "more" is never ending even where standard articulations are concerned ahead of extended techniques.

4. And speaking of "never ending", isn't it interesting that only string articulations have been discussed here so far?

I look at it as a positive thing. We invested in these collections and it appears that continued development is far from over-- and that's a good feeling. That's why I believe our first reaction ought to be more inquisitive rather than discouraging.

So, if this thread serves as a genuine request for the articulations mentioned, then I wholly support the request for such a collection, fwiw.

Let's face it-- we're insatiable!! [:P]

Well said JWL and I do concur. VSL has done pretty darn good in responding to our various needs and no doubt will continue if the demand is there. So far so good.

Agreed here too. VSL has been really responsive.

I even started a thread mentioning (as others have too) these extended techniques. One only has to look at project sam to see that there is more of a trend toward the contemporary sounds (flute fx & TS 2). One doesn't even need to have these things attatched to crazy performance tools either. Just lots and lots of variations of textures and FX.

Casting my vote again!

Clark

@Angelo Clematide said:

Here once more the list of string technique sample missing, techniques you find in every romantic symphony composed in the 19th century, as well in preceding classic:

collé, piqué, jeté, gettato, saltando, sul tasto, ponticello, col legno, sulla tastiere, spicatto, flying spicatto, sul ponticello tremolo, group spicatto, ricochet, battutta, martelé, detaché lancé, accented detaché, detaché porté, group staccato, stopbow, bindungen, sautillé, louré, off-string marcato, ponticello, pizzicato with the left hand.

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Angelo-- I for one would love to see even more techniques sampled. The more choice the closer one can come to realizing the infinite expressive possibilites of music.

However at least some of the "missing" string techniques are at least partially covered in some of the string packages including: sul tasto, sul ponticello, col legno, spicatto, ricochet, sul ponticello tremolo. And I suspect that a number of the other techniques can be reasonably approximated with combinations of existing techniques.

Best,
Jay

Great thread, and once again, Angelo, William, Dave, DG, and others, bring wisdom and astute observation from differing perspectives.

My two roubles worth?

The extra articulations would most certainly expand the pallette from which we would go forward with our own work. But I profer the respectful reminder that we are in reality 'playing' every instrument ourselves. 80 or more of them, with our own idea of what we're trying to achieve, and all within a box under our desk. I tend to agree with Angelo that it woud be delightful to have an extensive and formidable range of articulations at our fingertips, (with the probable, consequent, and inherent hardware problems of raw power and speed to deal with as a result), but Bill makes his point well too, and i think there's room for both in this delightful and intelligent discussion.

So as 'solo' performers we have responsibility for all that we produce, and articulatively, we must discern what we want, constructed from either specific samples, or a blend of others with tweaking in that process somewhere. It's also been my experience that sections, and i guess we come to strings here, don't always play an articulation as written, on the button, completely, every time, so that muddies the distinctions further.

So standing back from this, i propose that aside from a 'list' of all available articulations, (in the ideal world), we must also bring sample performance knowledge with us, and create, within a marriage of available samples and our own skills. That means sometimes we're notating a spiccato, but getting a velocity driven staccato. (Not from a sample usage perspective, but comparing with the realities of a live performance.) I've got rather adept at mixing sample articulations to produce an effect (given my current limited resources), and the sometimes slightly 'blurred' articulative distinctions add something to the mix, rather than detracting from a strictly specified technique.

In an ideal scenario we'd have all articulations, but then libraries would be measured in terabytes, and the process of accessing those samples when required would take on promethian proportions, require complex software programming, and probably deal yet another sizeable hit to hardware capability.

From a commercial perspective, i think VSL are on the right track, and optimistically, they've surprised everyone on a regular basis so far, so i wouldn't write off the potential of more articulations to work with in the future. They have, no doubt, commercial priorities to consider, but i'd second the view that VSL customer service, and a shared relationship with users regarding ideas and requests, is of the same high standard as the samples themselves. Consider what would happen if you asked some of the other developers for specific, occasional use articulations. The appassionata strings have to be the hit of the year, and i'm looking forward to seeing and hearing what else the team have up their sleeves.

My examples of this 'differing' articulative assumption are two recordings i have of Beethoven's 5th, 3rd movement, starting bar 140, (repeated section) where the Cellos and KB's saw away enthusiastically at quavers and crotchets in a fairly brisk 3/4. The Berlin Phil version is slightly slower, and more ponderous, invoking a definite impression of a lazy detache with profound velocitistic intent! And the Vienna Phil version is brisker with a clear emphasis on precision, and so shouts a crisp staccato, at least for the quaver runs. (I prefer the Vienna Phil version, as the feel of the passage changes with that precision given it a greater sense of urgency, and motion. And i have to say, the larger string players in this particular recording, conducted by Carlos Kleiber, are having an extremely good day, as the playing is excellent.)
Yet the passage in question is marked with neither detache or staccato, merely forte. Even if the passage were marked accordingly, i'm sure there would still be a difference between the two. So what would i pick? Which is my preference?
And that depends entirely on how seriously i would read a articulation marking within the context of the entire passage, including the preceding and following passages too.
We have musical articulation labels for a reason, but they're labels at the end of the day, and not set on stone as far as performance goes.

Great discussion, and a thoroughly enjoyable and intelligent read.

Regards,

Alex.

@hermitage59 said:

My examples of this 'differing' articulative assumption are two recordings i have of Beethoven's 5th, 3rd movement, starting bar 140...

… Yet the passage in question is marked with neither detache or staccato, merely forte. Even if the passage were marked accordingly, i'm sure there would still be a difference between the two. So what would i pick? Which is my preference?

Mama mia, what you touch there is far above the topic of just having all articulation in virtual format. I don’t even know if we should palaver about that here. For one, I don’t have to be an expert on how to interpret Beethoven, simply because I’m not a conducter for any other music then my own. For two, a conducter has to decide how the apparatus in front of him will play, this down to the last detail. There is a little room to move, respectively how to play music who is not fully indicated. Apart from that, there are dozens of possibilities to play a Détaché, and most often an additional hint is not indicated in Klassik scores, it's rather knowldege of the performers and conducters. I for one was surprised that the détaché in the VSL library are not in connected bowing, because for me détaché means first a flowing, connected bowing with an even sound, and then second accentuated and short variations. There are also a lot of other things involved, like interpretation, tradition, historical facts, how other conducters did it before, what the many confusing indications from different areas stand for etc.. Basically one can say, it is more or less all bow speed, bow pressure etc., I call that short "Speed, Balance Impact" which is also the title of a piece I wrote in the seventies. Also the manual i suggest below to Tanuj explains all the basics from classic to early 20th century, for baroque and renaissance there are other interpretation manuals available.

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Tanuj, It would be more efficient to study the orchestra bowing techniques as dry matter and then put it right away into music, instead of listening to music by other composer without interpretation reference. Attending an orchestra bowing workshop, even as a viever, can help too. But, since a couple of years there is string section class material available to anyone outside the academy.

For usefulness and theory, there is one manual available in english who explains all orchestra bowing techniques with absolute accuracy, including corresponding score examples. As much as I know, this is the only book available who deals exclusively on the subject "orchestra bowing techniques", but it is very good and covers all techniques. It is teaching material aimed at assisting conductors, composers, educators, and for string section training. The authors are Marvin Rabin, Priscilla Smith, and was produced with the assistance of Vartan Manoogian http://www.music.wisc.edu/faculty/facultybio.jsp?faculty_id=44 concertmaster of the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande resident in Geneva. As much as I know, it is also part of the material for orchestra bowing technique classes and workshops hold worldwide for young string players. As I remember, all the authors where working at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, which is also the original publisher. But I don’t have this material as english edition in my library, but the german edition only.

The english titel of this valuable material is "Guide to Orchestral Bowings Through Musical Styles" and can be ordered at amazon.com or directly from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, link:
http://www.dcs.wisc.edu/LSA/music/ev.htm

We may even have a forumite here who is at the academy in Wisconsin-Madison, or somebody who knows the material.

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I just had a good idea!

I could make a mp3 with all orchestra bowing technique patched in a row. This segments, and only as long as the particular technique lasts, I would cut out of different compact discs I have. I may leave a rest in between or ad a count in, the technique in use I write in a pdf, nicely numbered. How is that?

.

Sounds great, would be a very handy reference.

I'm again and again impressed by your literacy. (, oder? [:D] )

jo gell

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@Angelo Clematide said:

I just had a good idea!

I could make a mp3 with all orchestra bowing technique patched in a row. This segments, and only as long as the particular technique lasts, I would cut out of different compact discs I have. I may leave a rest in between or ad a count in, the technique in use I write in a pdf, nicely numbered. How is that?

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Angelo dear fellow, an excellent idea.
And like Mathis, i am continually surprised and impressed by your literacy, and vast knowledge base.

With respect,

Alex.

@Another User said:

And like Mathis, i am continually surprised and impressed by your literacy, and vast knowledge base.

I'm only a composing multi, circa quadruple, trick pony !!!!

[:D]

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Not really related to this but I've sometimes wondered who was the 1st important composer and important piece to make use of harmonics, natural or artificial.

@Guy said:

Not really related to this but I've sometimes wondered who was the 1st important composer and important piece to make use of harmonics, natural or artificial.

1738
Jean-Joseph Cassanéa de Mondonville (1711-1772), french composer and violinist
"Lessons harmoniques“
op. 4, 6 sonates, 1738.
First composer who composed sonates including flageolets, and mention them also in the preface as "Les sons harmoniques"


1756
Johann Georg Leopold Mozart (1719-1787), german composer, violinist, conducter
"Versuch einer gründlichen Violinschule"
1756, String method.

This string method is one of the important books for people interested in historically informed performance. Flageolet quote from Mozart's "Gründliche Violinschule“ Faksimile-Nachdruck der 3. Auflage, Augsburg 1789, Leipzig 1968, S. 107 und folgende:

"Jeder, der die Singkunst ein bißchen versteht, weis, daß man sich eines gleichen Tones befleissigen muß. Denn wem würde es gefallen, wenn ein Singer in der Tiefe oder Höhe bald aus dem Hals, bald aus der Nase, bald aus den Zähnen u.s.w. singen, oder gar dazwischen falsetiren wollte?... Wenn nun auch das beständige Einmischen des sogenannten Flascholets noch dazu kömmt, so entstehet eine recht lächerliche, und, wegen der Ungleichheit des Tones, eine wider die Natur selbst streitende Musik“


1759
Johann Heinrich Zang (1733-1811), cantor, student of J. S. Bach.
"Halleluja! Der Sieg ist da"
Ostertriumph for ten voices etc., 1759
1. Satz called "Flageolet” - 1th violins playing the Jesus theme.
First orchestral composition with string section flageolet.


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Beethoven died in 1827, I'm sure we would of found harmonics in his 10th or 11th symphony.... since I presume he never made use of them...Although I'm not 100% sure of that.

Ooh, sorry, to late, I just fired the chimney with LvB's handwriting of the 10th and the 11th, it was so cold this morning.

- This guy Paul is an old pal of mine from Appenzell. Violinist and composer Paul Giger uses flageolet on his recodings "Chartres" almost exclusively:

http://www.paul-giger.ch/old/gs_ch2crossing.mp3
http://www.paul-giger.ch/old/gs_ch1Labyrith.mp3

The Cathedral of Chartres (French: Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Chartres), widely considered to be the finest gothic cathedral in France. You can't duplicate that with altiverb.

http://homepage3.nifty.com/musicircus/ecm/e_new/n002.htm

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@JimineySnicket said:

Hello

I'm wondering if there are people out there who are programming 'new music' or 'contemporary music' (call it what you will) with the VSL. Everything I here seems to be very pastiche and film music orientated. Dont get me wrong I love it just as much as the next person but what I would love to hear is the VSL really being stretched...... musically speaking.

It doesn't have to be original music (although it would be great if it was) but maybe something by Birtwistle, Ligeti, Kurtag or Feldman. I was very pleased to see the piece by Takemitsu on the demo section. That's a good start but please lets have more of it.......

Cheers
Jim

My performance of "A Screaming Comes Across the Sky" by David Heuser (2005) was recently posted to the demo zone. It's certainly new music, not a pastiche, and not film music (though you may describe it as "filmic" I suppose).

Working on Atmosphères now ...

- Paul

This looks like a fun party, which I didn't want to miss entirely... even if I had to arrive late!

I certainly feel for Angelo in his general concern. It would be oh so nice to have more "extended" techniques in the library. But of course, it will be a late priority for VSL I'm sure, as there can't be a huge demand for it. However, if they're going to continue to be the absolute best of the best, then they actually can't avoid it forever. And I've noticed that there's been a dealthly silence from the VSL staff *every* time I've posted something requesting these techniques... so... I think they've got something planned. Maybe a Level 3 extended? Anyway, that's for another time.

I just wanted to pipe in a little about the idea that contemporary work somehow requires these extended techniques (and I realize that they're not necessarily "extended" in this day and age). Similar to Angelo, I've been a little frustrated by the idea of composing for what my library offers, rather than composing for what I hear. However, whenever I think this way I just have to remind myself that I never used to worry about it. I would auralize something, and write it down to be performed that way. If my samples couldn't manage it, then I just imagined the playback as though they could. It's not ideal, and it means there's always that gap between what you're hearing in your head and what you're hearing in your ears during composing, but it's certainly not the end of the world. Having said that, I do sometimes get cold chills when I realize that my recent works don't include techniques which were quite common in my past work. That scares me. Because I know it's absolutely because my sample can't give me those sounds.... It's not as though I couldn't auralize them, and incorporate them, but it just slips my mind when I'm not hearing them. So... please VSL... Level 3 Solo Strings!!! [;)]

But, on a completely different note. It is also a *major* challenge to try to extend your musical language, even in the absence of such techniques -- to deal, as Angelo says, with rhythm, harmony, and melody, but still find something compelling and culturally relevant to say. That's a BIG challenge. So, I certainly wouldn't say that without these techniques we're condemned to writing anachronistic music. We just need to push our conception of 'note in time' a little further. I'm actually kind of excited by that challenge... but still... I really want my L3 Strings! [;)]

cheers, All.

J.

Very nicely put, jbm.

I certainly hope you're right in your notion of "silence = hope". One nice thing about working with these samples is that some things that I auralize benefit from a little experimentation even after the score is completed. No matter how ideal my initial concept might be, I have a great deal of fun re-distributing articulations. I'm often surprised at how much I enjoy hearing the same notes played differently. I'm certainly doing this with the sounds we have, but as always: the more the merrier.

Hmm-- what *is* next on VSL's agenda, I wonder (besides special brass and woodwinds)?

@JWL said:

Hmm-- what *is* next on VSL's agenda, I wonder (besides special brass and woodwinds)?

I for one hope it involves huge advances in performance software so that we won't have to continually rely on VSL's good graces to deliver "just that one missing articulation" in the future. Perhaps a hybrid sample-player/intelligent sound-sculpting modeller à la Synful Orchestra? Or maybe a software instrument interface that also has built-in representation about generic performance facts beyond legato and repetition (such as automatic phrase boundary detection, along with configurable "spacing" between phrases). The sky's the limit!

- Paul

It's important to remember that VSL is constantly executing plans and ideas that were formed a certain amount of time prior to any release (such as the ground-breaking interface.) When these things come out we all jump on it and come up with a new wish list of additional features or even radical design requests such as an entirely different approach alle synful. I (and I'm sure VSL) understand this predilection by all us creative types with voracious appetite for comprehensive expressive means. I think we need to be somewhat more realistic in our demands or at least the timetable for more features.

I know we want miracles from VSL but maybe we can let them have a breather now and then (in between miracles at least: which many would say they have performed already.)