Clark
Thank you for your absolute & gracious reply. You have an enormous schedule.I shall do my best to not get in your way. Please forgive me if I came across dwellingly inconcideratly selfish. I have extreme respect towards your rare and incountering, very important work. I can't imagine trying to keep such a scale of work today. I would very likely fall over. I think back to the 70's when the vietnam war was just ending. All the Classical & Jazz venues went out of business.
I used to gig the rock clubs 6 night a week. That was my source of survival at that time. It was the only source for music. Gradually everything returned to normal again. These day's I try to write one page a day. At my own pace. After 35 , its all theory and harmony in the brain. Making up for physical creativity.

I imagine you are having , the ever reccuring flying dreams. I don't know why gigging causes this.

Sincerely
God Bless

R.K.,

Don't ever think that you get in my way. Rather, I welcome the wake up call to my poorly worded assertions! In fact, I was editing one of my posts to make myself easier to understand when you posted yourself.

I find it embarrassing when I alienate a fellow musician when in fact we are on the same side.

Clark

Clark:

Wow! You did good! I'm impressed!

Be Well,

Poppa

@gugliel said:

RK, Here is Jadassohn's way of putting your rule:

The most universal medium for modulating easily and rapidly from one key into another is the [i]diminished chord of the seventh[/i]. It may enter freely anywhere, without preparation of the seventh. It admits of very various resolutions and progressions in major and minor, and by means of the enharmonic change of one or several or all of its tones it can pass over to the most diverse keys.

ok here's another idea. try using the diminished 7th as an underlying theory in and of itself rather than an isolated modulation method. in other words, begin by taking the notes C, Eb, F#, and A (a diminished chord) and using this as the basis for all chordal movement. play a C chord, either minor or major then move a third up to Eb or down to A (again, either minor or major chords are fine), or equidistantly up or down to the tritone, F#. So the summary of this theory is that you work in basic triads (no coloration notes like 7, 9, 11 or 13) and constantly move either up or down by third or tritone; just never in conventional I-V structures. either major or minor triads are okay at any time, and when considering the movement by third, either a major or minor third is fine, i.e. C to Eb is just as good as C to E natural.

well, obviously this wouldn't have seemed new to Wagner, but it is a fundamental basic in writing for film because cadences can be avoided in a way that propels cinematic motion. then when a hit or cadence is actually desired, it sounds natural and can be done quickly at really almost any point. As you play with this you will notice an effective solution to move by step (C-F#-D rather than just C-D) which alleviates voice leading problems if doing a lot of stepwise writing. Additionally chromatic movement can easily be achieved as in C-Eb-B (up a minor 3rd and down a major 3rd), and both of these methods serve to modulate into the structure of yet another diminished chord.

Taking this into a more advanced realm, consider that there are only three possible diminished chords, and that those can only be transposed (or inverted depending on how you want to look at it) four times before the chord replicates itself. great, big deal; fodder for the nerd in all of us. but these aren't the only place where limited inversion and transposability occur in music. have a look at Olivier Messiaen's modes of limited transposition and then apply them to this diminished structure. for the esoteric theorist, this represents a direct empirically developmental link between 19th and 20th century music, instead of a anarchistic break between the two as many have attempted to suggest.

Indeed. This is a huge component in jazz harmonies. Take a C7 chord, for example. In the L.H., play a chord C-Bb-E covering a tenth. Play the L.H. chord for all permutations.

Then in the R.H. first play middle C-G-E (regular dominant) then Eb-G-Bb (C7 with a sharp nine) then F#-A#-C# (C7 with a sharp eleven and flat nine) then A-C#-E (C7 with a flat nine and an added thirteenth).

Now keep the R.H. stagnant and move the L.H. around by minor thirds.

On top of all this one can create melodic material using a C# (or E or G or Bb) diminished scale, cadencing at any time down a fifth or half step or up a half step from the L.H. root to a major or minor (or another dominant! --then the process can repeat itself).

Clark

Interesting that the above two posts contain miniature lessons or maybe helpful hints that nonetheless are technical in nature - why? Because they have been hypnotized by lifeless rules? - no. These principles merely help us accomplish our aims creatively and infuse fresh ideas into our work. It's all about being more creative and having an arsenal of devices that widen our palette. Nothing at all to suppress some innate gift of expression but rather let it come out in a variety of ways. That's is what study is for me: learning and becoming freer and less restricted in the process.

I would rather know what many others know about any given subject than to be stuck with whatever happens to reside in me (or not) as far as knowledge and tools of expression.

Now we are talking music.

Clark , take it easy on the little people. I can't reach a tenth. Somehow I picture you as a big individual. I'll have to try your jazz sounds, when I get time into writing jazz, maybe in the future.

Martin's in depth also reflects the style he is working on. I honestly didn't try it, but martin mentions screen writing. Cymetrics perhaps. Forgive me if I'm wrong. Love the knowledge. And will use it.

Here's another:

take the three diminished families.and all inversion use the harmonic minor scales on
1. C,D#,F#,A : E harmonic minor scale
2. D,F,G#,B : A harmonic minor scale
3. G,Bb,Db,E : D harmonic minor scale

anytime you flatten a note anywhere. Then you can use the next finger up as a target. and play 1/2 steps up from that finger to either major or minor. If you sharpen; a note then play the harmonic minor scale of that note and again target the next finger up 1/2 step to either major or minor.

This applies to any style of music.
Boroque, Classical, Jazz, Latin, bossa, ect.

If you use 5-1-3 triads then its distinctive classical sounding.

Absolutly the basics !

Its the composition , thats the interesting aftermath.

R.K.,

Don't forget:

1. Also includes G minor, Bb minor, and Db minor.
2. Also includes C minor, Eb minor, and Gb minor.
3. Also includes F minor, Ab minor and B minor.

What I love about this stuff is it is so versatile. By deriving harmonies from symmetrical scales and chords one can sound like Chick Corea all the way to Bernard Herrmann.

Clark

Dpcon,

I agree that knowledge of this theory can only enhance one's gifts. NEVER has technical skill diminished the mystery and wonder of the intangible energy that flows through music.

In fact, in my life, the wellspring of creativity has increased in volume and quality because my inner ear is so much more attuned to the sophisticated relationships between all these notes. Now I can much more easily realize something more fully and so much faster---

And I don't even have to think about it most of the time. Sure, I'm aware of what I'm doing technically, but my ear is free to roam because those technicalities are usually never an obstacle to my creativity.

Now the repetition tool, That's another story...

Clark

Thanks Clark. But no thanks.
I dont enjoy the ordinary diminished scales. For one, they are not ordinary for fingering.Slows Improvisation down to a halt. Two, I don't think they are a perfect harmonics. I think the perfect harmonic structure lies in the harmonic minor scales and the Diminished is a form of a minor. Thus allowing all possibilities.(Composition).You mentioned fast Improvisation earlier. That was one of the points to listing them.
3. Also, I have to watch my sugar level.

The west indies, also have their own individual diminished scales. ( How did they get into this). Who is making up the rules.

Any constructive replies. I'm trying to learn somthing here.

Dizzy Gillespies famous line: Mannnnnn, Did nobody show me SH$T.

just to throw something different into the mix...

I often work with multi-octave scales. Usually, I build these using tetrachords. This works very nicely, as you can get very rich harmonic textures, yet also preserve the natural beauty of stepwise motion inherent in diatonic scales. This was kind of inspired by Schillinger, in that I make scales which take two or three octaves to repeat (his different levels of symmetry).

Mind you, you pretty much have to start shifting your thinking to counterpoint, or at least layering of linear (horizontal) material -- traditional harmony tends to break down a little with multi-octave scales. (Though Schillinger has that very slick notion of scale expansions, which can produce harmonic continuities for pretty much any scale...) Not much talk of counterpoint here... hmm... anybody? And unless I didn't read properly (very possible) nobody's mentioned octatonic scales, which can create wonderful textures and melodic gestures, and can also jump around different harmonies quite freely, being composed of superimped diminished chords. But then, maybe my problem is that I really always think in scales/intervals, not in "chords", per se.


cheers,

J.

The Diminished scale is another name for the Octatonic scale. In my previous jazz example, I showed how one can superimpose Major triads derived from the diminished chord above a given root to create different dominant chord alterations.

This also applies to what Martin was saying about moving chords by thirds as a way to create harmonic movement.

Another scale that gets a lot of use (and names) that hasn't been mentioned yet is the ascending melodic minor scale. Also known as Super Locrian, Overtone, etc.

Clark

Sweet rich heaven. we're defenately in the late romantic era.(actualy we just ended the songwriting era with the computer generated era.) Ther's sugar in every part of the food chain. I like the hot deserts too. The Descending circular fourths.
And the parallel descending & ascending circular fourth's. flattened and sharpened ninth's. 2-5-1. I have to stop now. I wish I could learn more. But my mother sais
I have to eat a balanced meal. And eat all of my baroquely.

maybe it is also time to point / counterpoint in fourth's and circular fifth's.

enjoyed it fellas. I better get of here and get back to my balanced diet.
a little bit of everything, moderately.

I had a gerritol party last week. [/url][/list][/quote]

@PoppaJOL said:

Alan:

In one of your books (I have all four BTW and echo Martin's comment) you mention the 4 Volume work on Orchestration by Koechlin. I believe it is only available in French. Do you know where I could acquire this set?

Poppa

Titel: Traité de l'orchestration.
Publisher: Max Eschig, Paris

available here:
http://www.schott-musik.de/artist/show,10496.html

.

@Another User said:

If the directions give above are followed, the connection between chords will be correct according to the practice of voice leading in harmonic progression. ... Continued application of the process will, however, result in rather dull music. ... In other words, the set of rules is broken whenever greater musical interest can be achieved by breaking them.

Disagree! The quoted sentence doesn't make sense as long it's not said what rules, respectively what's written in the score. Any existing music who makes sense can be analysed, and the rules be attributed. Haven't found a piece of music yet who can not put into rules.

.

.

There are rules of construction as in building a house. A house must have doors but the uniqueness of the doors (or lack of) is in the hands of the designer. There are myriad possibilites: so the basic laws of construction are not the least limitation on the level of creativity in presenting the doors.

Who wants a beautifully painted door that doesn't work? We all know what it is to write a passage of music that doesn't work in some way. Much of the problem with untrained composers is that their music doesn't work. It is poorly constructed (sounds poor.) People argue that this is subjective yet they would not tolerate a bathroom fixture that doesn't work, like a toilet: which is where a lot of badly written music belongs.

All the rules, and music education won't help you composing music.

First, you have to have a IDEA, all the rest in music comes exactly then when you need it, not a second earlier.

.

@Angelo Clematide said:

All the rules, and music education won't help you composing music. First, you have to have a IDEA, all the rest in music comes exactly then when you need it, not a second earlier

I think Bach , Mozart and Beethoven all had a very good idea: to study music.

@Another User said:

All the rules, and music education won't help you composing music.

First, you have to have a IDEA, all the rest in music comes exactly then when you need it, not a second earlier.

This is completely false.

You can have a great idea, and if you know nothing, be utterly incapable of working it out and presenting it well.