Dpcon,

I agree that knowledge of this theory can only enhance one's gifts. NEVER has technical skill diminished the mystery and wonder of the intangible energy that flows through music.

In fact, in my life, the wellspring of creativity has increased in volume and quality because my inner ear is so much more attuned to the sophisticated relationships between all these notes. Now I can much more easily realize something more fully and so much faster---

And I don't even have to think about it most of the time. Sure, I'm aware of what I'm doing technically, but my ear is free to roam because those technicalities are usually never an obstacle to my creativity.

Now the repetition tool, That's another story...

Clark

Thanks Clark. But no thanks.
I dont enjoy the ordinary diminished scales. For one, they are not ordinary for fingering.Slows Improvisation down to a halt. Two, I don't think they are a perfect harmonics. I think the perfect harmonic structure lies in the harmonic minor scales and the Diminished is a form of a minor. Thus allowing all possibilities.(Composition).You mentioned fast Improvisation earlier. That was one of the points to listing them.
3. Also, I have to watch my sugar level.

The west indies, also have their own individual diminished scales. ( How did they get into this). Who is making up the rules.

Any constructive replies. I'm trying to learn somthing here.

Dizzy Gillespies famous line: Mannnnnn, Did nobody show me SH$T.

just to throw something different into the mix...

I often work with multi-octave scales. Usually, I build these using tetrachords. This works very nicely, as you can get very rich harmonic textures, yet also preserve the natural beauty of stepwise motion inherent in diatonic scales. This was kind of inspired by Schillinger, in that I make scales which take two or three octaves to repeat (his different levels of symmetry).

Mind you, you pretty much have to start shifting your thinking to counterpoint, or at least layering of linear (horizontal) material -- traditional harmony tends to break down a little with multi-octave scales. (Though Schillinger has that very slick notion of scale expansions, which can produce harmonic continuities for pretty much any scale...) Not much talk of counterpoint here... hmm... anybody? And unless I didn't read properly (very possible) nobody's mentioned octatonic scales, which can create wonderful textures and melodic gestures, and can also jump around different harmonies quite freely, being composed of superimped diminished chords. But then, maybe my problem is that I really always think in scales/intervals, not in "chords", per se.


cheers,

J.

The Diminished scale is another name for the Octatonic scale. In my previous jazz example, I showed how one can superimpose Major triads derived from the diminished chord above a given root to create different dominant chord alterations.

This also applies to what Martin was saying about moving chords by thirds as a way to create harmonic movement.

Another scale that gets a lot of use (and names) that hasn't been mentioned yet is the ascending melodic minor scale. Also known as Super Locrian, Overtone, etc.

Clark

Sweet rich heaven. we're defenately in the late romantic era.(actualy we just ended the songwriting era with the computer generated era.) Ther's sugar in every part of the food chain. I like the hot deserts too. The Descending circular fourths.
And the parallel descending & ascending circular fourth's. flattened and sharpened ninth's. 2-5-1. I have to stop now. I wish I could learn more. But my mother sais
I have to eat a balanced meal. And eat all of my baroquely.

maybe it is also time to point / counterpoint in fourth's and circular fifth's.

enjoyed it fellas. I better get of here and get back to my balanced diet.
a little bit of everything, moderately.

I had a gerritol party last week. [/url][/list][/quote]

@PoppaJOL said:

Alan:

In one of your books (I have all four BTW and echo Martin's comment) you mention the 4 Volume work on Orchestration by Koechlin. I believe it is only available in French. Do you know where I could acquire this set?

Poppa

Titel: Traité de l'orchestration.
Publisher: Max Eschig, Paris

available here:
http://www.schott-musik.de/artist/show,10496.html

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@Another User said:

If the directions give above are followed, the connection between chords will be correct according to the practice of voice leading in harmonic progression. ... Continued application of the process will, however, result in rather dull music. ... In other words, the set of rules is broken whenever greater musical interest can be achieved by breaking them.

Disagree! The quoted sentence doesn't make sense as long it's not said what rules, respectively what's written in the score. Any existing music who makes sense can be analysed, and the rules be attributed. Haven't found a piece of music yet who can not put into rules.

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There are rules of construction as in building a house. A house must have doors but the uniqueness of the doors (or lack of) is in the hands of the designer. There are myriad possibilites: so the basic laws of construction are not the least limitation on the level of creativity in presenting the doors.

Who wants a beautifully painted door that doesn't work? We all know what it is to write a passage of music that doesn't work in some way. Much of the problem with untrained composers is that their music doesn't work. It is poorly constructed (sounds poor.) People argue that this is subjective yet they would not tolerate a bathroom fixture that doesn't work, like a toilet: which is where a lot of badly written music belongs.

All the rules, and music education won't help you composing music.

First, you have to have a IDEA, all the rest in music comes exactly then when you need it, not a second earlier.

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@Angelo Clematide said:

All the rules, and music education won't help you composing music. First, you have to have a IDEA, all the rest in music comes exactly then when you need it, not a second earlier

I think Bach , Mozart and Beethoven all had a very good idea: to study music.

@Another User said:

All the rules, and music education won't help you composing music.

First, you have to have a IDEA, all the rest in music comes exactly then when you need it, not a second earlier.

This is completely false.

You can have a great idea, and if you know nothing, be utterly incapable of working it out and presenting it well.

I'm going out on the limb here. just one time. Because I havn't the inner & deep
disciplin and energy that William, Dave, Angelo, & Clark among others have.
But to mention;
why don't we have The Bach's ,Beethoven's, Mozart, Chopin < ( The Fab Four )
And All the other second string Great composers. In today's society?
First of all one has to have the disciplin and education at an early age. Because this is not leisure music by all means. And it is possible to train young musicians as trained Olympic or NFL athletes strive at that age. Second Which I think is an overlooked and most important point is ; Every day life. Beethoven moved on an average 1 time a month. It becomes unbearable with ordinary people. That should explain on a whole the overall picture. He moved once a month with no satelite dishes, cell phones, computers, ect. at that time. Need one say more ?
That should stir things up a bit !!

also a simple question: Has there been any far east composers, ever ?

Now I'm out of here.
Thank you for your helpful posts all. The rating here is more interesting than cable TV.

How do you know we don't have composers like that today? Are you psychic several centuries into the future?

Also, I have no inner deep discipline and energy. I don't know what that is. I'm just flailing around in general, trying to exist.

I like the Fab Four though.

There are no composers like that today because you didn't name any.

but lets be optomistic into the future and say, with all this thecnology today it will get worse before its gets better. Ray Kurtzweil is an inspiration of the future.

And there's this thing called democracy making the news these day's.

Flailing around in General

Stop luring me back on William. You're doing it on purpose.
Its past my bed time.

@Another User said:

All the rules, and music education won't help you composing music.

First, you have to have a IDEA, all the rest in music comes exactly then when you need it, not a second earlier.

This is completely false.

You can have a great idea, and if you know nothing, be utterly incapable of working it out and presenting it well.



O.K. - let's put it the other way around:

One learned all about music, composition, orchestration etc., but has no IDEA, doesn't hear any music withhin himself !

For example, you don't need to know what range a Waldhorn has, before you don't write anything for it, It's more then early enough when you look that up just then when you need it. This is efficient working! I "teached composition", this itself is a a oxymoron. You can't learn to be a composer, either you have a force inside yourself who makes you one, or not. All studies in the world can't help you when you don't have any idea, driving force you can't resist. I realized that most student don't have any ideas, but think they become composers just simply being in my classes, thru studies, that's a waste of my time.


IDEA FIRST !

.... anything else will follow, comes to you when you need it, automatically!!! You don't need to know a age 19 what you will be knowing at age 47, everything just comes to you at the right time, quasi the second you need it. Of course it helps, and speeds the process up, when you know where the knowledge is stored.

do you understand now what i wanna say?

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@R.K. said:

also a simple question: Has there been any far east composers, ever ?

i know composer all over the place, but don't know what you mean by "far east". Looking from my place, far east would be Rumania, Bulgaria, Georgia, all Russian countries, or do you mean something else? Which countries are in "far east"?

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@R.K. said:

also a simple question: Has there been any far east composers, ever ?

How about Toru Takemitsu and Tan Dun?

@R.K. said:

also a simple question: Has there been any far east composers, ever ?

How about Toru Takemitsu and Tan Dun?

Aha that far east...

Toru Takemitsu is a genius, respectively was, have all the records he ever did.

"Tan Dun" is one of the best recorded project ever. It's "THE" reference album i play for clients on my monitoring, especially to those who think they have good engineers.

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@Angelo Clematide said:

O.K. - let's put it the other way around:
One learned all about music, composition, orchestration etc., but has no IDEA, doesn't hear any music withhin himself !

This fellow you describe is in the wrong business. If he doesn't have any ideas than what's the point? I have more ideas than I could ever count. They will be executed either well or poorly based upon my application of both innate gifts and compositional tools aquired from private study with a master and study of the great masters. This study (at least in my case) has brought me to the place of presenting my ideas a thousand times better than if I hadn't.

I don't understand why people wrestle so with the idea of study or rules. The greatest composers who ever lived were very well aquainted with these processes and taught them to others. It's all about the music - not the rules. Every art and science has it's foundational principles which may be bent, broken or abandoned. But one must possess something before you can discard it.

Your're right Dave, it doesn't make sense. Just happen to me that all student at the academy where that way. I quit the job in 1980.

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