Guglel
Thank you for your prompt quote from Jadassohn. How refreshing it is to make sense.

Also enjoyed Weslldeckers painting.

I also lacked a formal education, and bypassed all rules and theory at a young age, that is why i advocate to others what is in the shadows. and how important it is to understand the picture. when you see the picture its perfect harmony, and you can sleep at night. Its no coinncident, that Beethoven, mozart, Bach, Chopin ect. became what they became. Its because their parents were music teachers. Thats making sense. also a young age. thats the ingredient that creates greatness. I'm forever will try to help what was not available for me at a young age. Today with all the utter glutter of music sounds and machines, how can any young person understand the true sounds of music. confusion , utter waist of time. you can make all the money of the world in the music bussines and not know anything about it. It took me well in my forties before I understood or saw the picture. and could hear sounds and understand them. that is a little late to become great in this day and time,or any time, and that is why I advocate to others that might have a chance. that alot did not have. Painting with colors is a great analogy ofcourse. Now lets use food and taste as another analogy. So that we may understand the over all picture from another angle perhaps. If theory was first introduced during the great composers era. Mainstream average (1776).( Great year to be alive.)
then the mathematical theoretical equations were formed and those who used them gave us the music. And all its harmonies. So if that is taken in analegical retrospect to food. then the main course meal was created for music. And how tastfull it was depended on the educational and age factor. As technology upgraded, as in the musical instruments, their came different styles. thus the food buffe' became the pallet.

then came the style of classical music called Jazz. It was derived from quick improvisation for a couple of extra dollars one could achieve at night without having to prepare. So the desert was now icluded to the buffe'. And the theory and harmony which is essentialy the same is now used by different styles. Ofcourse each style has its own further embelishments and garnishes and gorme items to include. Depending on the education one receives.
And the buffe' is open to any ideas any one has to offer.

With Kind regards to all

One of the things least understood by the untrained composer is the idea of construction. That is weak versus strong construction (regardless of style.) Mainly this has to do with partials and overtones and how they resonate in vertical structures. Also the movement between these structures can be strong or weak. Counterpoint also contains vertical structures that result from horizontal melodic movement. This horizontal movement can itself be strong or weak in it's construction. We have all heard good (strong) melodies and bad (weak.) The balance between these two pillars of musical construction (vertical and horizontal) contains much of the essence of music to the point that a good grasp of them will give the composer much of what he needs to rise to the art.

There is often a debate in various forums about study and rules. When it come to orchestral composition one should consider that the percentage of world class musicians who play this music and have never studied or learned the rules is right around 0%. Yet so many who want to write for these dedicated souls can't bring themselves to take a lesson ot two (let alone the lifetime of study the players have had.)

Sorry to say an untrained composer will usually sound like an untrained fiddle player.

R.K.,

I must disagree with your statement that jazz is "derived from quick improvisation for a couple of extra dollars one could achieve at night without having to prepare."

In every way jazz and improvisational music in general require MORE preparation than the equivalent non-improvised music simply because in order to compose that fast one has to become incredibly fluent in all aspects of whatever style your going to engage.

(Composition) = (Very Slow Improvisation)

(Improvisation) = (Very Fast Composition)

Likewise, one could be a Noble Savage composer, so to speak, but it is likely that it would take that person an outrageous amount of time to compose something on the same level compared to someone with knowledge and skill...

Perhaps THAT is what you mean by prepare: Wallowing in relative ignorance while trying to express oneself.

Clark

Clark
I don't know what nerve i must have hit , But I must have realy upset you.
Please converse, i will be glad to get in it with you. First of all, You sound like the average dude wallowing in the word ignorant. If you have an issue state it please.
What i meant by by no preperation to playing or giging jazz, is just what i meant by it. You get the music or chart early in the night , and you play it, and you get paid. And thats how the Art of improvisation or jazz was invented. If you have the correct way, then say it. One ofcourse takes it to the next level and can make a liftime of work out of it. Which is by al means not done without prepatory. The more you work on somthing the better it is.

Know this business of taking a long time on something. Leads me to think you are just a follower. because you are playing a game of some sort. Shame on you.
In fact I don't think you are even a musician. Because anyone who have written anything can tell you, that somtimes one page can take 6 weeks. And another time , you can write a whole peace of music in one sitting. I got an E-mail the other day by some nice lady who's trying to start her own forum, and she states that handel wrote his massia in miraculasly 21 day's. Obviously she has no clue that maybe he wrote the piano part in that time but it took a fleet of staff to turn it into what it is. I've writen a whole peice of music in just one improvisational pass. Then i went back and wrote it down later, which took a little time. I wish you people who have no clue would take time and think or study about this subject. Frankly its a waist of time for anyone to get involved with.

But i still love you.

Clark

I had to go out for a minute.

Now I have a little more time to finish.

you seem to think that fast and slow in improvising and composition.
What makes you think you improvise slow in composition. Is it because maybe you havn't seen anybody in your liftime that improvises fast in classical music. I thought you bost on all the knowledge and skills you posses, and you havn't seen anybody compose by improvising quickly. That is precisly the point that everyone was trying to make. If you read up a thread you will see , one gentlmen stated that the percentage of that type of thing going on today is 0 %. And that is why I had to spend over 7 years to find the right formulas, only by improvising and accidental revelation. Which incidentaly the experience came from playing Jazz 4,5,6 hours a night from hotel to hotel. from one classical piece to the other. By the way, I sucked so bad musically. That I now require security 24 hours a day. And I have hatefull people crying something about ignorance and composition. When I was young, I didin't understand why some people needed security. Is this what you call full of myself. I call it real life.

Just a thought to leave you by. Beethoven improvised for mozart the first time they got together. And Mozart thought that he was playing somthing prepared already. Even the best can't tell somtime.

I hope that mekes you happy.

I'll leave you with another thought still.

Record companies these day's can't wait for somthing tragic to happen to their artist, so they can collect. (jack pot).

You fit the discription perfect.

but i still love you.
unless you say somthing bad about me again. Then I will ignore you, and you can wallow in all your great knowledge and skills all by yourself.

R.K.,

I am terribly sorry that I upset you so.

I realized I used the word "ignorant" and I can see why that generated bad vibes. Please understand that I meant that the more fluent one is in the "language" or "rules" or theory than the faster one can generate content. I did not mean to imply this was you.

So to get back to your word "Prepare." I took your wording to mean that Improvisation was something that just happened with out any connection to deliberate, well articulated composition. I only wanted to show that the two ARE IDENTICAL. This does not run cross to anything said before from the others. It actually reinforces a lot of the principles addressed in previous posts on this thread. Allow me to provide context using myself as an example:

I accompany ballet classes (as well as modern, tap and jazz) during the daytime hours, and I improvise everything. Imagine conceiving a Grande Valse Allegro or a Mazurka on the spot to accompany a pirouette combination. Or a modal atmospheric eastern-sounding piece to go along with a stretch combination in modern class in a harmonic-major mode. Or Phrygian or Aeolian mode.

Now, after hours, I go and play a jazz gig. I apply the same principles of composition (melody and harmony, voice leading, counterpoint, texture, etc.) only I understand that there are different conventions to using the same exact building blocks that generate all the other music that I do.

In-between all this I compose a film score. SAME THING.

Please please don't think I was trying to incite you. I was only being blunt.

Clark

I also included as a point of reference a nod to Dave Conner's untrained fiddle comment, stating that knowledge of the technique will facilitate faster creation.

Knowledge CAN be a dangerous thing. People can confuse technique with artistry. It happens to me. I believe it happens to everyone. However, this is the reason that many people who are ignorant (not you, R.K.) have a false pride in their "Noble Savage" approach.

Music theory is just that: Theory.

The true brilliance of a master composer allows for these theoretical models while understanding that the art might bend these things and still maintain beauty in an architectural sense. It is in fact necessary (to paraphrase Martin's Schillinger reference) to maintain structure as much as possible. Consequently the real genius lies in reinventing the rules, much the same way a scientist might discover something that revolutionizes the way we all see the world.

To say that Mozart confused an improvised piece of Beethoven with something prepared also underscores my sentiment exactly. As far as compositional style is concerned, Beethoven merely chose to agonize over notes after the fact. This doesn't mean he wasn't capable of composing "fast." Mozart agonized over the notes before the fact. This was the way he chose to work.

Sometimes I choose to agonize over a melody or the choice of timbres for any given piece I'm working on for days on end instead of racing through at the "speed of thought." Does it mean that the music is better? Usually not. It usually means that I have a fear of commitment concerning whatever artistic decision I have to make. Or I'm procrastinating! I am the laziest person I know.

So please accept my apology, R.K. I realize that my wording was a bit slanted. I did not mean to make it look like I was making you a target. Rather I think we mostly agree on the main points (after reading your responses) so it would be silly for us to argue.

Peace,

Clark

Clark
Thank you for your absolute & gracious reply. You have an enormous schedule.I shall do my best to not get in your way. Please forgive me if I came across dwellingly inconcideratly selfish. I have extreme respect towards your rare and incountering, very important work. I can't imagine trying to keep such a scale of work today. I would very likely fall over. I think back to the 70's when the vietnam war was just ending. All the Classical & Jazz venues went out of business.
I used to gig the rock clubs 6 night a week. That was my source of survival at that time. It was the only source for music. Gradually everything returned to normal again. These day's I try to write one page a day. At my own pace. After 35 , its all theory and harmony in the brain. Making up for physical creativity.

I imagine you are having , the ever reccuring flying dreams. I don't know why gigging causes this.

Sincerely
God Bless

R.K.,

Don't ever think that you get in my way. Rather, I welcome the wake up call to my poorly worded assertions! In fact, I was editing one of my posts to make myself easier to understand when you posted yourself.

I find it embarrassing when I alienate a fellow musician when in fact we are on the same side.

Clark

Clark:

Wow! You did good! I'm impressed!

Be Well,

Poppa

@gugliel said:

RK, Here is Jadassohn's way of putting your rule:

The most universal medium for modulating easily and rapidly from one key into another is the [i]diminished chord of the seventh[/i]. It may enter freely anywhere, without preparation of the seventh. It admits of very various resolutions and progressions in major and minor, and by means of the enharmonic change of one or several or all of its tones it can pass over to the most diverse keys.

ok here's another idea. try using the diminished 7th as an underlying theory in and of itself rather than an isolated modulation method. in other words, begin by taking the notes C, Eb, F#, and A (a diminished chord) and using this as the basis for all chordal movement. play a C chord, either minor or major then move a third up to Eb or down to A (again, either minor or major chords are fine), or equidistantly up or down to the tritone, F#. So the summary of this theory is that you work in basic triads (no coloration notes like 7, 9, 11 or 13) and constantly move either up or down by third or tritone; just never in conventional I-V structures. either major or minor triads are okay at any time, and when considering the movement by third, either a major or minor third is fine, i.e. C to Eb is just as good as C to E natural.

well, obviously this wouldn't have seemed new to Wagner, but it is a fundamental basic in writing for film because cadences can be avoided in a way that propels cinematic motion. then when a hit or cadence is actually desired, it sounds natural and can be done quickly at really almost any point. As you play with this you will notice an effective solution to move by step (C-F#-D rather than just C-D) which alleviates voice leading problems if doing a lot of stepwise writing. Additionally chromatic movement can easily be achieved as in C-Eb-B (up a minor 3rd and down a major 3rd), and both of these methods serve to modulate into the structure of yet another diminished chord.

Taking this into a more advanced realm, consider that there are only three possible diminished chords, and that those can only be transposed (or inverted depending on how you want to look at it) four times before the chord replicates itself. great, big deal; fodder for the nerd in all of us. but these aren't the only place where limited inversion and transposability occur in music. have a look at Olivier Messiaen's modes of limited transposition and then apply them to this diminished structure. for the esoteric theorist, this represents a direct empirically developmental link between 19th and 20th century music, instead of a anarchistic break between the two as many have attempted to suggest.

Indeed. This is a huge component in jazz harmonies. Take a C7 chord, for example. In the L.H., play a chord C-Bb-E covering a tenth. Play the L.H. chord for all permutations.

Then in the R.H. first play middle C-G-E (regular dominant) then Eb-G-Bb (C7 with a sharp nine) then F#-A#-C# (C7 with a sharp eleven and flat nine) then A-C#-E (C7 with a flat nine and an added thirteenth).

Now keep the R.H. stagnant and move the L.H. around by minor thirds.

On top of all this one can create melodic material using a C# (or E or G or Bb) diminished scale, cadencing at any time down a fifth or half step or up a half step from the L.H. root to a major or minor (or another dominant! --then the process can repeat itself).

Clark

Interesting that the above two posts contain miniature lessons or maybe helpful hints that nonetheless are technical in nature - why? Because they have been hypnotized by lifeless rules? - no. These principles merely help us accomplish our aims creatively and infuse fresh ideas into our work. It's all about being more creative and having an arsenal of devices that widen our palette. Nothing at all to suppress some innate gift of expression but rather let it come out in a variety of ways. That's is what study is for me: learning and becoming freer and less restricted in the process.

I would rather know what many others know about any given subject than to be stuck with whatever happens to reside in me (or not) as far as knowledge and tools of expression.

Now we are talking music.

Clark , take it easy on the little people. I can't reach a tenth. Somehow I picture you as a big individual. I'll have to try your jazz sounds, when I get time into writing jazz, maybe in the future.

Martin's in depth also reflects the style he is working on. I honestly didn't try it, but martin mentions screen writing. Cymetrics perhaps. Forgive me if I'm wrong. Love the knowledge. And will use it.

Here's another:

take the three diminished families.and all inversion use the harmonic minor scales on
1. C,D#,F#,A : E harmonic minor scale
2. D,F,G#,B : A harmonic minor scale
3. G,Bb,Db,E : D harmonic minor scale

anytime you flatten a note anywhere. Then you can use the next finger up as a target. and play 1/2 steps up from that finger to either major or minor. If you sharpen; a note then play the harmonic minor scale of that note and again target the next finger up 1/2 step to either major or minor.

This applies to any style of music.
Boroque, Classical, Jazz, Latin, bossa, ect.

If you use 5-1-3 triads then its distinctive classical sounding.

Absolutly the basics !

Its the composition , thats the interesting aftermath.

R.K.,

Don't forget:

1. Also includes G minor, Bb minor, and Db minor.
2. Also includes C minor, Eb minor, and Gb minor.
3. Also includes F minor, Ab minor and B minor.

What I love about this stuff is it is so versatile. By deriving harmonies from symmetrical scales and chords one can sound like Chick Corea all the way to Bernard Herrmann.

Clark

Dpcon,

I agree that knowledge of this theory can only enhance one's gifts. NEVER has technical skill diminished the mystery and wonder of the intangible energy that flows through music.

In fact, in my life, the wellspring of creativity has increased in volume and quality because my inner ear is so much more attuned to the sophisticated relationships between all these notes. Now I can much more easily realize something more fully and so much faster---

And I don't even have to think about it most of the time. Sure, I'm aware of what I'm doing technically, but my ear is free to roam because those technicalities are usually never an obstacle to my creativity.

Now the repetition tool, That's another story...

Clark

Thanks Clark. But no thanks.
I dont enjoy the ordinary diminished scales. For one, they are not ordinary for fingering.Slows Improvisation down to a halt. Two, I don't think they are a perfect harmonics. I think the perfect harmonic structure lies in the harmonic minor scales and the Diminished is a form of a minor. Thus allowing all possibilities.(Composition).You mentioned fast Improvisation earlier. That was one of the points to listing them.
3. Also, I have to watch my sugar level.

The west indies, also have their own individual diminished scales. ( How did they get into this). Who is making up the rules.

Any constructive replies. I'm trying to learn somthing here.

Dizzy Gillespies famous line: Mannnnnn, Did nobody show me SH$T.

just to throw something different into the mix...

I often work with multi-octave scales. Usually, I build these using tetrachords. This works very nicely, as you can get very rich harmonic textures, yet also preserve the natural beauty of stepwise motion inherent in diatonic scales. This was kind of inspired by Schillinger, in that I make scales which take two or three octaves to repeat (his different levels of symmetry).

Mind you, you pretty much have to start shifting your thinking to counterpoint, or at least layering of linear (horizontal) material -- traditional harmony tends to break down a little with multi-octave scales. (Though Schillinger has that very slick notion of scale expansions, which can produce harmonic continuities for pretty much any scale...) Not much talk of counterpoint here... hmm... anybody? And unless I didn't read properly (very possible) nobody's mentioned octatonic scales, which can create wonderful textures and melodic gestures, and can also jump around different harmonies quite freely, being composed of superimped diminished chords. But then, maybe my problem is that I really always think in scales/intervals, not in "chords", per se.


cheers,

J.

The Diminished scale is another name for the Octatonic scale. In my previous jazz example, I showed how one can superimpose Major triads derived from the diminished chord above a given root to create different dominant chord alterations.

This also applies to what Martin was saying about moving chords by thirds as a way to create harmonic movement.

Another scale that gets a lot of use (and names) that hasn't been mentioned yet is the ascending melodic minor scale. Also known as Super Locrian, Overtone, etc.

Clark