@cuzzinlouie said:

...How come most $99-$200 pianos on the market have had most if not all these things from day one, and VSL refuses to implement them in VSTis that cost 3-4 times as much, 3 years after inception, one piano after another with the same limitations as the previous one? Seriously, what is this?

Until I see a major shift in the way VSL is doing business, I'm out.

Do these $99-$200 virtual pianos sound better than VSL's offerings? If so, then why are you complaining? I would imagine you would be grateful to find something you like at a lower price. Do VSL's offerings (with their limitations) sound better than the $99-$200 virtual pianos? if so, then why are you complaining? I would imagine that you would be grateful to have a product that exceeds all others. 

Personally, I'm grateful there are so many options to choose from that can inspire and enhance my playing experience. Nobody is forcing me to buy VSL products. It's the choice I'm making because I like them the best. Hopefully, you'll find satisfaction with whatever product you choose to use. 

God Bless,

David

Hm, where do I begin? Should I even begin? Probably not, so I'll just say this:

"Do these $99-$200 virtual pianos sound better than VSL's offerings?"

In my opinion this question is too vague. As I am sure you know, it's not just the sound one gets by pressing a key what makes a great piano, but if this was your question then no. They all sound like good pianos recorded with good microphones, even the $99 ones. They all have their pluses and minuses, that's why we keep buying them in the hope that one day we'll get to the holy grail of VST pianos.

Why do I complain? For the same reason you complain about me complaining. It's a method of expressing disagreement with something that's been said or done.

@cuzzinlouie said:

Why do I complain? For the same reason you complain about me complaining. It's a method of expressing disagreement with something that's been said or done.

Did I complain about you? Did I express annoyance or dissatisfaction with your comments? No, I didn't. I simply inquired why you were complaining so that I might better understand your feelings on the matter. Your response has not helped me to better understand your perspective. 

There is a difference between criticism and suggestions on improvements. I was interested to see if I could find justification in your criticism of VSL's "business" and "advertisement" practices. So far, I can't. 

God Bless,

David

True, you did not complain about me, but you did disagree with the things I said to the extent that you felt the need to set me straight. It's bit of a gray area and I hope you agree. Not quite patronizing, but not far from it either, at least this is how a post like yours can be perceived when words are all we have.

If I misinterpreted and you were instead simply genuinely curious, I apologize. But then, I am not sure what could have been unclear about my bullet points? You may of course disagree with them, but instead of asking for more, clarifying details, you suggested I should simply be grateful for having so many options.

David, if you're ok with paying VSL premium prices for incomplete products, that is entirely your call. Nobody is going to stand in your way.

Do you at least agree that if nobody is saying anything, no improvement will ever be made? If after +-3 years since release, bullet-pointing the features that are incomplete, nonexistent or broken are considered an invalid complaint, I'd like to know why.

@cuzzinlouie said:

Do you at least agree that if nobody is saying anything, no improvement will ever be made? If after +-3 years since release, bullet-pointing the features that are incomplete, nonexistent or broken are considered an invalid complaint, I'd like to know why.

I think it's appropriate to make suggestions. The recent Synchron Piano software update is evidence that VSL listens to suggestions and works to improve their products. What I would like to see is the Synchron Piano software be able to support multi-threading so that it performs better with multiple mics. I'd also like to see a record feature implemented. I would think that VSL would appreciate customer feedback like that. 

However, I'm not inclined to question their ethics if they don't implement my suggestions. VSL is the only virtual piano company I'm aware of that gives a full refund if you're not satisfied with their product after you buy it. In this context, I think that the refund policy negates the accusation regarding "questionable marketing pitches" and "misleading advertising." That's why I'm finding it difficult  to see justification in your criticism of VSL. 

God Bless,

David

@David B. said:

I think that the refund policy negates the accusation regarding "questionable marketing pitches" and "misleading advertising." That's why I'm finding it difficult  to see justification in your criticism of VSL.

To be honest your reaction left me just as baffled as probably my post left you, so let's just agree to disagree.

Given the fact that this thread is 3 years old, and Paul's last reply on the matter is roughly 8 months old, I think it's safe to assume that the "Sympathetic" slider will continue to output everything but sympathetic resonance for the foreseeable future, and that the silent key is also a lost cause, even after the addition of the long awaited velocity curve. If the lower left corner represents 0 velocity and 0 gain, why on earth can't we use it to mimic a silent key? How hard can it be to not trigger any sound if velocity stays below a certain threshold?

Oh well, I've wasted enough time on this forum today. Over and out.

@Another User said:

Oh well, I've wasted enough time on this forum today. Over and out.

Thank you for taking the time to engage more on this topic.

God Bless,

David

Hi,

Thanks for posting. We had to make a few decisions for the latest update (Velocity Curve Editor, Smooth Attack, Half Pedal Editor and more) a month ago, and unfortunately we didn't find the time to integrate a useful "silent key" option. It is still on the list.

Regarding Sympathetic Resonance: There are more advanced algorithms we could apply, at a pretty high cost of CPU power. Maybe there will be a better solution available at some point.

I'm sorry that we have not fulfilled all wishes in one go, and I understand that you are upset. I will keep on pushing.

Best,
Paul

Hi Paul,

With all due respect, but this is just more of the same.

@Another User said:

Maybe there will be a better solution available at some point.

Maybe? At some point? Who would make a better solution available?

Sorry Paul, I don't mean to be an a**, but I am a little frustrated. Moreover, I saw you guys released the new 280VC, I got curious and checked the price, and then I remembered this thread and came here to see if anything got done in the last 2-3 years.

As a result all I can say is that ... maybe ... at some point ... someone will find a better way to convince me that paying €445 for a VST piano which has the exact same limitations as the other 5 I foolishly purchased from VSL might be a good idea.

Danke fuers Zuhoehren.

An "offline" HQ resonance feature would be a dream come true.  There'd be a new round of complaining about optimisation but if the sound justifies the inconvenience you won't hear a peep out of me.

Hi,

Sorry about the frustration. I get the point. 

You're asking, and I am answering, honest and friendly.

Best, 
Paul

Hi Paul,

Without knowing or caring about how VSL is internally structured, I do assume your best intentions, while realizing that your hands may be tied regarding certain matters or decisions. A friendly interaction with your customers is always welcome and appreciated, and sometimes it may be all that's needed. 

For such a simple request as the silent key though, just being friendly stops being enough after 3 years. Whatever the reasons are, these are no longer relevant when the implementation of such a feature can be written, compiled, tested, packaged into a new installer and uploaded on the server during literally one lunch break. 3 years and counting for the implementation of such a simple feature would not be understandable even for a product that costs €10 and I hope you agree that this is a little hard to swallow.

Regarding the -- let me put on my soft gloves and merely call it "sub-optimal" -- sympathetic resonance, this is a little different, since this is not a new feature request, but a fix request. There is a widget on that UI which reads "Sympathetic". As long as it's on that interface, it becomes one of the features that customers have paid for, a feature they've learnt to take for granted in the last decade because most, if not all other VST pianos have implemented it substantially better than VSL. After 3 years of waiting, a customer is not interested in hearing about how difficult such a feature implementation is, especially since your products are priced much higher than the ones that have implemented this feature successfully. Not even having an ETA after all this time makes matters worse.

What's even sadder is the fact that there are other issues that bug me even more than these two, in all 5 VSL pianos that I own, and you made it pretty clear to me in previous posts that these won't get addressed either. It's a pity, really. The potential for something amazing was definitely there, these could have been THE vst pianos, period. Instead they are merely good but overpriced pianos with a few issues, and the fact that they are packed to the brim with velocity layers does not change that. That's just my opinion.

I hope that you'll find at least tiny bits of my critique useful and I sincerely wish you and VSL a world of success.

Hi Paul,

I totally agree with the people expressing dismay regarding the sympathetic feature. It only does a little bit up to about six and then it turns to mud. Nothing like the sound of actually having the pedal depressed when a note is played.

I have a very simple solution that should use no CPU and would make me at least extremely happy. The sound with the pedal down is definitely superior. Put in an option to use the pedal down samples instead of the pedal up samples (when the pedal is up). I actually did this with the 10-year-old Imperial by means of sample robot and then the Kontakt 4 sampler. Unfortunately the process degraded the sound.

I hope VSL will take this suggestion very seriously because it would truly make these superior pianos (I have both the Bösendorfer Imperial and the Steinway).

Best, Phil

Hello again Paul,

I will add that I've done extensive analysis of my piano sound versus numerous recordings at YouTube and it's clear that when both are using no pedal, mine is superior. When both are using the pedal, mine is superior. But when the recordings are using the pedal and mine is not the recordings are superior.

One main difference with virtual pianos is to get the full pedal resonance you have to have the pedal down before the note is struck. With a real piano, if you depress the pedal immediately after striking a note you will still get most of the resonance. I've checked this on my piano. But not with the virtual piano. And it's extremely difficult if not impossible to have the pedal down before the note without catching the previous note — unless you want an audible gap in sound. I've spent many hours working on this and analyzing all of this. Plus the pedal down samples would give a delightful sound to all notes that are played.

If desired, you could give the option of having the pedal down samples for every microphone position individually, in case some people wanted to mitigate the effect. But it should definitely be available for all the microphones.

I am currently just redoing the recordings I made years ago using your earlier Bösendorfer Imperial and the midi clips I made then, with your Steinway. Thanks, Phil

I would very much appreciate a response, Paul. And if you don't intend to do this please tell me why. It seems like it would be a very simple thing to do and would make many people happy. Theoretically everyone.

If you absolutely won't do it I will have to figure out a way to do it myself. But it will be extremely time consuming, and if I have to do it I want to get started on it now.

I guess I'm dumb but it took me a long time to realize why sometimes my mix sounded better than other recordings and other times it sounded worse. I guess it's because I assumed the sympathetic was doing what you said it would. My solution this would definitely make it a superior piano.

Best, Phil

I just wanted to put in another vote for improved sympathetic resonance, silent key, and improved una corda (ideally samples, but a better algorithmic una corda, perhaps with adjustability, would also be great). I'd probably put una corda first on that list--and would even pay for an upgrade that included true una corda samples.

I'm certain they won't do una corda since they have to re-record the entire pianos and it would effectively double the size of the download. Frankly I don't even like it on my Baldwin 5'8" grand because when the dampers come down they make a little bit of a twang because not all the strings are vibrating equally. It was that way when it was new. But the sustain resonances would be very simple for them to do.

I've been doing the sustain resonances myself using the sampler Kontakt. If anyone else wants to know how, let me know. It's a bit of work.

@Phil2 said:

I'm certain they won't do una corda since they have to re-record the entire pianos and it would effectively double the size of the download. Frankly I don't even like it on my Baldwin 5'8" grand because when the dampers come down they make a little bit of a twang because not all the strings are vibrating equally. It was that way when it was new. But the sustain resonances would be very simple for them to do.

I've been doing the sustain resonances myself using the sampler Kontakt. If anyone else wants to know how, let me know. It's a bit of work.

I agree true una corda samples are unlikely--but a better una corda model should be doable--and as I think someone else on this forum mentioned could be adjustable (maybe even including felt or moderator options as as alternatives to una corda effect).

Nevertheless, I think una corda samples should be considered, at least for a limited set of pianos and/or mics. The Steinway perhaps has a large enough market to support una corda as a paid upgrade or even separate alternative instrument. The 280VC might be another good candidate, on the assumption Stage B makes scheduling a new recording session easier.

Hi all.

I want to add another voice to the call for proper sympathetic modelling. Its quite startling to me that:

• a product at this price point does such a terrible job of it
• the pianos sound as good as they do without it.

I had to laugh (and agree) with one of the previous comments that referred to it as a “mud slider”. I simply can’t find any level/gain which creates a pleasing enhancement to the sound of the piano.

What’s baffling to me (and I assume and honest mistake???) is that the online manual correctly describes the way you should be able to generate/hear sympathetic resonance, and I quote “You can hear this effect when you hold down a key without sounding it and then briefly hit another key”. https://www.vsl.info/en/manuals/synchron-pianos/play-view

As all of you know, it simply does not work in the way it should (and as described in the manual). Also, as others have already pointed out, products at much lower price points (like Ravenscroft and a think Garritan) do a great job this and to great musical effect.

@VSL. You have some truly great piano libraries (at least to my ear) with the Synchron series and your 14 day returns policy is such a welcome thing for this industry but, please add proper sympathetic modelling (and silent key for that matter). This would turn your already good product into the only piano VST anyone would ever need.

Embertone Walker 1955 1.1 update already make it come true.  

I have to agree with you completely in all aspects. I completely agree with you. I am also a programmer and what you say is just so. It doesn't take 10 minutes to solve the problem. It is simply incomprehensible why it is not possible to spend 10 minutes on this problem in 3 years. Also the problem with symphathek resonance is very unsatisfactory. After all, you have also paid for this function. This is not ok.