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  4. Dimension Strings: Why don't they sound like solo players?

  • Dimension Strings: Why don't they sound like solo players?

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    Hi

    I know this sounds like a loaded question, but is there any particular reason that the individual players in Dimension Strings do not sound like solo players?  

    As an ensemble they generally sound great, and the flexibility to mix players and tweak parts individually leads to additional realism, but if you're trying to reproduce a small ensemble (say 4-6 players in total) I find it pretty much impossible to get an authentic sound - especially with very intimate arrangements.   The reason being that, in small ensembles each individual player is often very clearly audible, and no matter how much editing and tweaking of articulations one puts in, the Dimension players on their own don't really work as solo players.

    In contrast the VSL Solo Strings sound fantastically realistic on their own - it's just that I ideally need another 2 or 3 equally authentic sounding players for each section.   I know that Dimension Strings is not intended to be a bunch of soloists, but much of the value of having access to individual players seems to be somewhat wasted if they don't sound ... well, individual when heard in isolation.

    Is there any chance of a new solo strings library perhaps, one fine day, with 2 or more solo players for each section?  This would be an awesome library for any smaller ensemble work.

    Sorry for the slightly critical tone, Dimension Strings is a superb tool, but given that an ensemble is made up of individuals, it seems strange that the indivdual players don't quite sound they way an individual player normally would.

    Thanks for any feedback.

    Jules
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    The style of playing and the style of recording both contribute to the feel of the libraries.  DS is a recording of players who are trying to blend in with each other while Solo Strings was recorded with players trying to stand out.  The players may even be using different types of rosin specifically to achieve better blend vs a sound that carries better.  DS has a tiny bit of bleed-through as well between players.  Not much but enough to considerably soften the sound and make it too unfocused for solo playing.  I'm glad DS doesn't sound like solo players because if it did, it wouldn't sound like an ensemble.
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     They are not meant  to be solo players.  If they were solo, they would not work as an ensemble.  Try layering 8 solo violins and see what happens.  That is why the Dimension Strings were created.
  • T
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    Mmmm thanks for the feedback guys.  All interesting points.

    I have to say that if you arrange an ensemble, then put a spot mic on one player and solo him/her, it will still sound like a solo player, and not like a less identifiable derivative of an ensemble, which no longer sounds like an individual player. 

    Whilst I accept the 'blending' argument to a point, I'm afraid I don't agree that individual players playing together no longer sound individual, if you listen to them on their own.  They may not sound the same as an out and out solist, but the legato transitions, attacks, expressions etc. are still unmistakably those of an individual player.  To my ear, the individual players in Dimension Strings, don't sound like authentic individual players, they sound like a kind of hybrid between a solo player and a distillation of part of an ensemble.  This works great when they're all blended together, but is less effective if the ensemble is much smaller.

    I'm by no means suggesting Dimension Strings is not a superb product, or that the ensemble sound it creates is not detailed and beautiful, simply that, for whatever reason, despite offering the flexibility of being able to isolate individual players, when it's broken down to much smaller parts, it is somewhat less effective.

    All just my view of course.

    All the best

    Jules
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    It has to do with samples, rather than live performers. If you take 8 live players and record them together of course it will sound lke an ensemble.  But if you take 8 solo sampled players and layer them together it will not sound like an ensemble, but will have disturbing phasing effects and a general artificial quality. This is due to the extremely complex acoustics of string instruments.  You may notice that this is NOT true of woodwinds.  In other words, you can create a very good woodwind ensemble out of solo samples.  But with strings it is not just an option, but essential to use the Dimension recording technique.  With brass it also helps, but is not quite as essential.  For example if you used the solo C tumpet and Bflat trumpet along with cornet, you can create a very good sounding ensemble, especially with MIR providing the reverb and space.  Though the Dimension Brass add a very easy to use function of the same trumpets, horns or trombones playing in any combination which makes them good for general orchestral use. 

    One other thing I've noticed on Dimension Strings is that though they are not designed for solo use, the blending works just as well for 2 or 4 players as for all 8 players. 

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    @William said:

    If you take 8 live players and record them together of course it will sound lke an ensemble.  But if you take 8 solo sampled players and layer them together it will not sound like an ensemble, but will have disturbing phasing effects and a general artificial quality.

    That's an interesting concept William.  All I don't fully understand (assuming you're correct), is why professionally sampling 8 solo players, each with their own distinctive tonal and expressive variations, would sound any different to them playing live.   Especially with careful tweaking of the way the sampled performance is arranged.  Maybe there's something here I'm missing.

    Anyway, no big deal.  I'm afraid I don't agree with your comments that the Dimension Strings sound as good if only 2 parts are playing, unless perhaps you arrange them in unison.   If 2 or 3 players are arranged in harmony, the ear can easily identify the individual parts, which I personally find is not well represented using Dimension Strings.   I've had a number of projects recently for small ensemble, and where there is no budget for live players, I get by far the best results from using multiple solo string libraries, rather than exclusively Dimension Strings.

    Horses for coarses I guess.

    All the best

    Jules
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    The interaction between string players is responsible for the ensemble sound. The Dimension recordings capture this.  If you use solo players to try to create a string ensemble, they still resolve into individual players, without the richness that occurs live.    It is both musical and acoustic in origin. 

    Concerning the  number of players if you use only two or three in harmony, that is not an ensemble but more of a solo chamber performance like a quartet or quintet, so I didn't mean that.  I meant that in an orchestral context - like a chamber orchestra - going down to as few as two works very well with Dimension.  Also, using the "desks" against one another for divisi.   

    I should add that I noticed how well even just two Dimension violins worked when doing the divisi parts for the "Vertigo" demo which has 6 part divisi among the violins.  This resulted in only two players on several parts near the beginning which sounded very natural when I was doing the original recording.
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    @Trailerman said:

    Mmmm thanks for the feedback guys.  All interesting points.

    I have to say that if you arrange an ensemble, then put a spot mic on one player and solo him/her, it will still sound like a solo player, and not like a less identifiable derivative of an ensemble, which no longer sounds like an individual player. 

    Whilst I accept the 'blending' argument to a point, I'm afraid I don't agree that individual players playing together no longer sound individual, if you listen to them on their own.  They may not sound the same as an out and out solist, but the legato transitions, attacks, expressions etc. are still unmistakably those of an individual player.  To my ear, the individual players in Dimension Strings, don't sound like authentic individual players, they sound like a kind of hybrid between a solo player and a distillation of part of an ensemble.  This works great when they're all blended together, but is less effective if the ensemble is much smaller.

    I promise you that putting a spot mic on an ensemble player does not sound like a soloist.  I've already described some string-related reasons for this, including the fact that ensemble players use different types of rosin than soloists, and ensemble players interact with each other where soloists are focused only on their own tone and not the tone of those around them.  Even the legato transitions will sound different as ensemble players work hard to coordinate those transitions with each other.  Keep in mind a soloist needs to overpower the whole string ensemble!  So even dynamics will be approched very differently. The attacks and expressions are also unmistakably those of an ensemble player, not an individual player.

    Now Dimension Strings does have some bleed-through so your comment that you can hear a bit of the ensemble in the individual mics is certainly true and I agree witih you, the same way you can hear some of the low brass ensemble in Dimension Brass even in individual instruments.  My guess is that there's just no good way to record a group of people individually while still having them in an environment where they feel like a group and can still react to one another.
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    You're right about the musical adjustments that players make because they are playing in an ensemble - it is a basic part of the ensemble sound and lost when you stick separate solo recordings together.  But the "bleed-through" is not a flaw but an essential part of the players fitting together as an ensemble. 

    For example - suppose (a somewhat weird situation) that the players were recorded as true soloists in totally isolated recording chambers but playing together with headphones. They would sound like separate solo players, and not blend into the true ensemble sound that the Dimension players have. 

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    I think we'll have to agree to disagree.  I still maintain that if you were to isolate (to the extent that it's possible) a single player in an ensemble, that player would not sound like an individual player in DS.  I'm not suggesting they'll sound likje a 'soloist', that's a misinterpretation of what I've been saying.  But they will still sound like a solo, individual player, clearly and distinctively a single instrument.

    I can only assume that the way DS is constructed, the editing of articulations and particularly legato transitions is designed to work specifically in an ensemble context, when all players are blended together, which means that it's not possible to fully and accurately capture the individual transitions that are specific to a single player.  This in turn means that one player in isolation lacks the individuality that gives a solo player (not a 'soloist' but a single player heard on it's own) it's character.

    Then again, I could be completely wrong.  At the end of the day, I suppose I'd just like more solo string options, because those that are on the market (aside from the VSL solo strings) are really not up to the job.
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    It is not to do solo players.  It is to do individually controllable ENSEMBLE PLAYERS. 

    If you want pure solo - then use Solo Strings. 

  • N
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    Having, in the past, played both solo double-bass and orchestral double-bass, as has already been pointed out, the techniques used are very different.  One of the reasons that recording "X" number of solo instruments and then trying to create an ensemble out of them doesn't work is that each player will NOT be interacting with the other players in the section, something that is essential to ensemble string section playing.  In the section, each player will nuance his/her playing to blend with the section in terms of style/intonation/musicality, etc.  In solo playing, one is not looking to blend, but to stand out.  In a section, no one individual player is the focus, as a soloist, the soloist is the focus.

    As a side note: ye olde GPO did indeed attempt to build sections out of solo string players (but that library cannot be compared to anything VSL offers as it is entry-level in the extreme).
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    Noldar, the OP is referring to the sonic aspect of Dimension Strings--the fact that you can hear some bleed-through--rather than the performance aspect.  On that subject, I also believe the OP is misunderstanding the point of DS, which is to build ensembles.
  • T
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    I understand the purpose of Dimension Strings.  I bought it as soon as it was released and have beta tested VSL products for many years.

    My understanding was that one of the purposes of Dimension Strings, was to enable ensembles of varying sizes to be built, using smaller combinations of individual players.  My point is that, although it works great for larger ensembles, where you want that slightly blurred, group sound, it is significantly less effective for very small ensembles, especially where individual instruments might be playing different parts.  In my most humble of opinions, it fails to deliver a suitably intimate sound for individual players, to enable this kind of arrangement to be effective.

    I don't want it to sound like solists, I was simply hopping that it's "unlimited performance flexibility" and Herb's desire to make a library that "primarily was all about singling out the musicians", would enable these kind of intimate arrangements.  Clearly I misunderstood the purpose and scope of the library, which is entirely my own mistake.

    Thanks for all your helpful and constructive input.

    Jules
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    Jules, sorry to be irritable.

    Anyway, it is interesting to hear from string players on this question.
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    @Trailerman said:

    I understand the purpose of Dimension Strings.

    ...

     Clearly I misunderstood the purpose and scope of the library....

    :oP

    But on a serious note, I don't think this library was ever meant to sound like a quartet or octet, since Solo Strings is really the way to go with a group that small.  I understood DS to be for small studio sounds, chamber groups, and up, but I remember right when violins came out the general consensus was that they are ensemble-oriented and not suited for one or two players of each string type.  There are some players who have less of the bleed-through effect though.  I can't remember right off the top of my head but I feel like Violin 8 for example has more vibrato and a bit of a clearer sound, and if I'm remembering correctly that's the one I tend to bring forward a bit.
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    Always nice to have your face rubbed in it when you try and bow out of an argument gracefully.  Many thanks for that.

    Jules
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    Aw I'm sorry I didn't mean it like that, I thought you didn't even realize.  I promise my intentions were light-hearted.  I also didn't think we were arguing at all, we just had different understandings about how the product was marketed.  Anyway, my apologies!