@Trailerman said:

Mmmm thanks for the feedback guys.  All interesting points.

I have to say that if you arrange an ensemble, then put a spot mic on one player and solo him/her, it will still sound like a solo player, and not like a less identifiable derivative of an ensemble, which no longer sounds like an individual player. 

Whilst I accept the 'blending' argument to a point, I'm afraid I don't agree that individual players playing together no longer sound individual, if you listen to them on their own.  They may not sound the same as an out and out solist, but the legato transitions, attacks, expressions etc. are still unmistakably those of an individual player.  To my ear, the individual players in Dimension Strings, don't sound like authentic individual players, they sound like a kind of hybrid between a solo player and a distillation of part of an ensemble.  This works great when they're all blended together, but is less effective if the ensemble is much smaller.

I promise you that putting a spot mic on an ensemble player does not sound like a soloist.  I've already described some string-related reasons for this, including the fact that ensemble players use different types of rosin than soloists, and ensemble players interact with each other where soloists are focused only on their own tone and not the tone of those around them.  Even the legato transitions will sound different as ensemble players work hard to coordinate those transitions with each other.  Keep in mind a soloist needs to overpower the whole string ensemble!  So even dynamics will be approched very differently. The attacks and expressions are also unmistakably those of an ensemble player, not an individual player.

Now Dimension Strings does have some bleed-through so your comment that you can hear a bit of the ensemble in the individual mics is certainly true and I agree witih you, the same way you can hear some of the low brass ensemble in Dimension Brass even in individual instruments.  My guess is that there's just no good way to record a group of people individually while still having them in an environment where they feel like a group and can still react to one another.

You're right about the musical adjustments that players make because they are playing in an ensemble - it is a basic part of the ensemble sound and lost when you stick separate solo recordings together.  But the "bleed-through" is not a flaw but an essential part of the players fitting together as an ensemble. 

For example - suppose (a somewhat weird situation) that the players were recorded as true soloists in totally isolated recording chambers but playing together with headphones. They would sound like separate solo players, and not blend into the true ensemble sound that the Dimension players have. 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.  I still maintain that if you were to isolate (to the extent that it's possible) a single player in an ensemble, that player would not sound like an individual player in DS.  I'm not suggesting they'll sound likje a 'soloist', that's a misinterpretation of what I've been saying.  But they will still sound like a solo, individual player, clearly and distinctively a single instrument.

I can only assume that the way DS is constructed, the editing of articulations and particularly legato transitions is designed to work specifically in an ensemble context, when all players are blended together, which means that it's not possible to fully and accurately capture the individual transitions that are specific to a single player.  This in turn means that one player in isolation lacks the individuality that gives a solo player (not a 'soloist' but a single player heard on it's own) it's character.

Then again, I could be completely wrong.  At the end of the day, I suppose I'd just like more solo string options, because those that are on the market (aside from the VSL solo strings) are really not up to the job.

It is not to do solo players.  It is to do individually controllable ENSEMBLE PLAYERS. 

If you want pure solo - then use Solo Strings. 

Having, in the past, played both solo double-bass and orchestral double-bass, as has already been pointed out, the techniques used are very different.  One of the reasons that recording "X" number of solo instruments and then trying to create an ensemble out of them doesn't work is that each player will NOT be interacting with the other players in the section, something that is essential to ensemble string section playing.  In the section, each player will nuance his/her playing to blend with the section in terms of style/intonation/musicality, etc.  In solo playing, one is not looking to blend, but to stand out.  In a section, no one individual player is the focus, as a soloist, the soloist is the focus.

As a side note: ye olde GPO did indeed attempt to build sections out of solo string players (but that library cannot be compared to anything VSL offers as it is entry-level in the extreme).

Noldar, the OP is referring to the sonic aspect of Dimension Strings--the fact that you can hear some bleed-through--rather than the performance aspect.  On that subject, I also believe the OP is misunderstanding the point of DS, which is to build ensembles.

I understand the purpose of Dimension Strings.  I bought it as soon as it was released and have beta tested VSL products for many years.

My understanding was that one of the purposes of Dimension Strings, was to enable ensembles of varying sizes to be built, using smaller combinations of individual players.  My point is that, although it works great for larger ensembles, where you want that slightly blurred, group sound, it is significantly less effective for very small ensembles, especially where individual instruments might be playing different parts.  In my most humble of opinions, it fails to deliver a suitably intimate sound for individual players, to enable this kind of arrangement to be effective.

I don't want it to sound like solists, I was simply hopping that it's "unlimited performance flexibility" and Herb's desire to make a library that "primarily was all about singling out the musicians", would enable these kind of intimate arrangements.  Clearly I misunderstood the purpose and scope of the library, which is entirely my own mistake.

Thanks for all your helpful and constructive input.

Jules

Jules, sorry to be irritable.

Anyway, it is interesting to hear from string players on this question.

@Trailerman said:

I understand the purpose of Dimension Strings.

...

 Clearly I misunderstood the purpose and scope of the library....

:oP

But on a serious note, I don't think this library was ever meant to sound like a quartet or octet, since Solo Strings is really the way to go with a group that small.  I understood DS to be for small studio sounds, chamber groups, and up, but I remember right when violins came out the general consensus was that they are ensemble-oriented and not suited for one or two players of each string type.  There are some players who have less of the bleed-through effect though.  I can't remember right off the top of my head but I feel like Violin 8 for example has more vibrato and a bit of a clearer sound, and if I'm remembering correctly that's the one I tend to bring forward a bit.

Always nice to have your face rubbed in it when you try and bow out of an argument gracefully.  Many thanks for that.

Jules

Aw I'm sorry I didn't mean it like that, I thought you didn't even realize.  I promise my intentions were light-hearted.  I also didn't think we were arguing at all, we just had different understandings about how the product was marketed.  Anyway, my apologies!