One other thing about velocity crossfade is that it is a complex situation in general that sometimes works poorly  and other times excellently.  An example of it working perfectly is  if you have three solo instruments playing together.  Though each one may chorus a little, the ear cannot distinguish where the chorusing is coming from and so it will sound perfect. In fact, I A/B'd actual dynamic samples on each of the solos compared to velocity crossfading and they were not distinguishable. 

Also, the oboe is an instrument particularly suceptible to chorusing in crossfading because of its extremely bright thin sound. If you do the same thing with a flute it will not be detectable.  Another example is the recent Recorder library which has absolutely perfect crossfading at all levels.

I think there is really nothing to gain from velocity cross fade for the solo instruments, actually. you have the velocity from VELOCITY and if you have the dynamic held notes... I use CC11 and track volume otherwise. this is an idea I keep seeing talk about but I think it has no real use for the solo instruments. I'm baffled that people believe there is something here.

@civilization 3 said:

I think there is really nothing to gain from velocity cross fade for the solo instruments, actually. you have the velocity from VELOCITY and if you have the dynamic held notes... I use CC11 and track volume otherwise. this is an idea I keep seeing talk about but I think it has no real use for the solo instruments. I'm baffled that people believe there is something here.

@mohurwitzmusic said:

Without sounding like a broken record, I'll once again suggest using Lemur. You can create a multiball that controls Velocity XF on one axis, and Expression on another (as I do on my Youtube video "Composing using Lemur and sample libraries", at around 04:55). That way, you can decide what type of volume automation sounds best. I often use a combination of the two. It's far more than a workaround...it's actually a better way to work. It's great for quiet but heavy brass pads, like those found in Strauss's music. 

HTH

MOH

@wrathy said:

...but how do you suggest to create a line of say two bars of 16th notes or 8th notes that cres/dim over those two measures?

With short notes I always use the midi velocity.

Advantage: You often have 4 different layers with staccatos.

The case of a crescendo over 2 bars: Have a look that you get a crescendo over all but also that the rise of the velocity is not linear.

In other words: Even if you have a crescendo you should vary the rise of the velosity (as players do it in reality).

Further you could set accents on 1 and/or 3 or so.

Example: This piece only got one type of sample: Staccatos - to be precise; for each instrument!

It only is a variation of velocities.

BTW

If the dynamic doesn't react enough you can increase the dynamic within VI (try it out).

Best

Beat

Thanks wrathy! Lemur saves me so much time. It has revolutioned my workflow. That, and switching to Cubase...

@wrathy said:

...but how do you suggest to create a line of say two bars of 16th notes or 8th notes that cres/dim over those two measures?

With short notes I always use the midi velocity.

Best

Beat

@wrathy said:

...but with a legato line VXfade seems your only option.

[Y] [H]

A situation that quite regularly occurs, is that you have a series of legato notes that lead to a long note that should fade out. Problem is, the decrescendo dynamics have e very noticable beginning, most of them even start with a little crescendo as someone pointed out before.

But often you just want the last note connected with a legato transition. So, what would be perfect, would be some perf_leg_dyn patches. As far as I can see, this could be done by the vsl editing team by programming; the leg_fast patches for example also do not have their own sustained samples, they just have a faster transition, which then blends in the sustain phase of the regular legato samples.*

What you can do:

take a legato patch and drag your desired dynamic patch into the 2nd slot and activate slot-X-fade. Play the legato line and just after the transition to the note you want to fade/get louder program a x-fade to the dynamic patch. you have th tweak this x-fade curve a bit, and maybe play around with the volume settings for the 2nd slot but you definitely can get fine results.

*btw: this "blending" at some places is clearly noticeable, so, somewhen  a re-editing could be fine.

That sounds like some good ideas!  Dynamic legatos could possibly be very valuable.    

Also though, I have to say that the statement about crossfade being your only option on a legato line is completely wrong.   A combination of legato in four velocities and dynamic samples can work flawlessly, though it is not as easy to do as the mindless way of just crossfade everything. 

Crossfade is in a way a "Cheat" because it is not actually using the performance which is being represented.  The VSL approach has always been to use AUTHENTIC sounds of actual performances.  That is why even the old First Edition sounds are still good.   However, one can get away with the "Cheat" in the case of ensembles so perfectly that often it makes more sense to use it.  And as I said before in many cases the solo instruments can be crossfaded flawlessly especially when you have more than one instrument being played prominently.  In a large orchestral context it is almost impossible to hear any difference between crossfade and dynamic samples.

@William said:

That sounds like some good ideas!  Dynamic legatos could possibly be very valuable.    

Also though, I have to say that the statement about crossfade being your only option on a legato line is completely wrong.   A combination of legato in four velocities and dynamic samples can work flawlessly, though it is not as easy to do as the mindless way of just crossfade everything. 

Legato lines require velo Xfade WHY? What is the reality, what are the facts behind this argument. I use legato samples. It works. if you need a longer held note there are samples for this. this is really very simple.

this is why I'm glad I am skeptical of what I read.

@wrathy said:

If you have running eighth or sixteenths over a number of bars, how would YOU do it?

"notes that cres/dim over those two measures?" I use different velocities, you know. :shrug:  I turn Velo Xfade off. 

It occurs to me one might read these assertions about such a thing and believe them and one's perception is clouded by this received belief. {What is in the patch, velocity prescribed now by XFade, providing that was left out so you cannot access velocity by midi velocity?} That is why I posted what I did.  Useful for ensemble patches in certain strategies, certainly. And I take the point about dynamic samples with a pronounced attack, but I would not use this strategy for that as I find it more hassle than it's worth for a solo instrument. Which should not differ in phase.

 browser problem...

 I certainly didn't mean to say anyone here was mindless, I just meant a general "mindless" application of crossfade is sometimes done when it shouldn't be used at all.  In the example of 16ths and 8ths you should never use crossfade. It is pointless, as note-on velocity works perfectly for short notes.  It is only sustains and legato where one might want to use crossfade. 

But an example of avoiding crossfade and using dynamic samples and note-on velocity is using a crescendo  sample followed by a leap up a fifth, played by overlapping a dynamic sample with an ff legato at the moment the dynamic reaches ff.  It is true that sort of thing won't always work depending on timing and the line.  Another example is using slight decrescendo samples instead of sustains and connecting the end of one of those to a legato p.  That can be very effective in a line which has slightly more pronounced attacks on each sustained note that then tail off to a softer legato.   

 I have a question about this. So this means you can hear some sort of phasing when this happens? What about the SE users, they'll get a lot of phasing too, with solo instruments. I know to use dynamic instruments but those are only in extend versions. So that more of a realistic performance for solo instruments you need to get full solo libraries (to be able to use dynamics)?

Cheers,

Ricardo

One reason you may want to use modulation for staccato dynamics is if you want to use velocity to trigger long/short variations. 

 That is true but one thing I've noticed is crossfaded short notes never sound as good as note-on velocity combined with amplitude which is what you get in a normally programmed multi-velocity patch.  For example a staccato will have four actual recorded dynamics, and the rest of the variation is amplitude controlled by velocity within each of those samples.  It is close to perfect for almost any line. But when you layer a little of an mp with a little of an mf sample it sounds thicker, not as clean and natural sounding, and is quite audible. And if there is no reason to do it...  though you are right about that being a good way to control it especially if you are playing live.

I've often had occasions when the change in timbre from one velocity sample to the one above is so pronounced that it causes difficulty - particularly on mf legato melodies with longish notes. I would have thought the best solution would be an increase in the number of velocity levels for the solo instruments. Eight would be a good number - obviously extend the recording time but as they would be solo rather than ensemble maybe not too expensive.

Also on the theme of dynamics be great to have some pfp percussion samples - timp swells anyone? They can be fudged but not as good as an actual recording.

ACtually on timpani I've found that using crossfade works perfectly especially if you use two patches: one for single notes and one for rolls.  This allows you to do an accented start to a roll - a classic timpani effect  such as FFp followed by a crescendo - that sounds exactly like live, or a release of a roll to a single hit that is accented more than the release sample would be - another thing often heard in timpani parts.  The one cell for single hits is set for no cossfade, the other for rolls is set for crossfade. 

I should be putting sound examples of these up !