@wrathy said:

...but how do you suggest to create a line of say two bars of 16th notes or 8th notes that cres/dim over those two measures?

With short notes I always use the midi velocity.

Best

Beat

@wrathy said:

...but with a legato line VXfade seems your only option.

[Y] [H]

A situation that quite regularly occurs, is that you have a series of legato notes that lead to a long note that should fade out. Problem is, the decrescendo dynamics have e very noticable beginning, most of them even start with a little crescendo as someone pointed out before.

But often you just want the last note connected with a legato transition. So, what would be perfect, would be some perf_leg_dyn patches. As far as I can see, this could be done by the vsl editing team by programming; the leg_fast patches for example also do not have their own sustained samples, they just have a faster transition, which then blends in the sustain phase of the regular legato samples.*

What you can do:

take a legato patch and drag your desired dynamic patch into the 2nd slot and activate slot-X-fade. Play the legato line and just after the transition to the note you want to fade/get louder program a x-fade to the dynamic patch. you have th tweak this x-fade curve a bit, and maybe play around with the volume settings for the 2nd slot but you definitely can get fine results.

*btw: this "blending" at some places is clearly noticeable, so, somewhen  a re-editing could be fine.

That sounds like some good ideas!  Dynamic legatos could possibly be very valuable.    

Also though, I have to say that the statement about crossfade being your only option on a legato line is completely wrong.   A combination of legato in four velocities and dynamic samples can work flawlessly, though it is not as easy to do as the mindless way of just crossfade everything. 

Crossfade is in a way a "Cheat" because it is not actually using the performance which is being represented.  The VSL approach has always been to use AUTHENTIC sounds of actual performances.  That is why even the old First Edition sounds are still good.   However, one can get away with the "Cheat" in the case of ensembles so perfectly that often it makes more sense to use it.  And as I said before in many cases the solo instruments can be crossfaded flawlessly especially when you have more than one instrument being played prominently.  In a large orchestral context it is almost impossible to hear any difference between crossfade and dynamic samples.

@William said:

That sounds like some good ideas!  Dynamic legatos could possibly be very valuable.    

Also though, I have to say that the statement about crossfade being your only option on a legato line is completely wrong.   A combination of legato in four velocities and dynamic samples can work flawlessly, though it is not as easy to do as the mindless way of just crossfade everything. 

Legato lines require velo Xfade WHY? What is the reality, what are the facts behind this argument. I use legato samples. It works. if you need a longer held note there are samples for this. this is really very simple.

this is why I'm glad I am skeptical of what I read.

@wrathy said:

If you have running eighth or sixteenths over a number of bars, how would YOU do it?

"notes that cres/dim over those two measures?" I use different velocities, you know. :shrug:  I turn Velo Xfade off. 

It occurs to me one might read these assertions about such a thing and believe them and one's perception is clouded by this received belief. {What is in the patch, velocity prescribed now by XFade, providing that was left out so you cannot access velocity by midi velocity?} That is why I posted what I did.  Useful for ensemble patches in certain strategies, certainly. And I take the point about dynamic samples with a pronounced attack, but I would not use this strategy for that as I find it more hassle than it's worth for a solo instrument. Which should not differ in phase.

 browser problem...

 I certainly didn't mean to say anyone here was mindless, I just meant a general "mindless" application of crossfade is sometimes done when it shouldn't be used at all.  In the example of 16ths and 8ths you should never use crossfade. It is pointless, as note-on velocity works perfectly for short notes.  It is only sustains and legato where one might want to use crossfade. 

But an example of avoiding crossfade and using dynamic samples and note-on velocity is using a crescendo  sample followed by a leap up a fifth, played by overlapping a dynamic sample with an ff legato at the moment the dynamic reaches ff.  It is true that sort of thing won't always work depending on timing and the line.  Another example is using slight decrescendo samples instead of sustains and connecting the end of one of those to a legato p.  That can be very effective in a line which has slightly more pronounced attacks on each sustained note that then tail off to a softer legato.   

 I have a question about this. So this means you can hear some sort of phasing when this happens? What about the SE users, they'll get a lot of phasing too, with solo instruments. I know to use dynamic instruments but those are only in extend versions. So that more of a realistic performance for solo instruments you need to get full solo libraries (to be able to use dynamics)?

Cheers,

Ricardo

One reason you may want to use modulation for staccato dynamics is if you want to use velocity to trigger long/short variations. 

 That is true but one thing I've noticed is crossfaded short notes never sound as good as note-on velocity combined with amplitude which is what you get in a normally programmed multi-velocity patch.  For example a staccato will have four actual recorded dynamics, and the rest of the variation is amplitude controlled by velocity within each of those samples.  It is close to perfect for almost any line. But when you layer a little of an mp with a little of an mf sample it sounds thicker, not as clean and natural sounding, and is quite audible. And if there is no reason to do it...  though you are right about that being a good way to control it especially if you are playing live.

I've often had occasions when the change in timbre from one velocity sample to the one above is so pronounced that it causes difficulty - particularly on mf legato melodies with longish notes. I would have thought the best solution would be an increase in the number of velocity levels for the solo instruments. Eight would be a good number - obviously extend the recording time but as they would be solo rather than ensemble maybe not too expensive.

Also on the theme of dynamics be great to have some pfp percussion samples - timp swells anyone? They can be fudged but not as good as an actual recording.

ACtually on timpani I've found that using crossfade works perfectly especially if you use two patches: one for single notes and one for rolls.  This allows you to do an accented start to a roll - a classic timpani effect  such as FFp followed by a crescendo - that sounds exactly like live, or a release of a roll to a single hit that is accented more than the release sample would be - another thing often heard in timpani parts.  The one cell for single hits is set for no cossfade, the other for rolls is set for crossfade. 

I should be putting sound examples of these up ! 

In my opinion, I don't think that VSL team needs to fix this matter but I know that the crossfade is a cheap and a "cheat" and it is a way for expressive legato and sustain phrases. This matter for The Special Edition users is not ok but with the right velocities it can sound good. Any questions, of how this problem should be fixed correctly for legato and sustain phrases on some instruments? I do know that staccato phrases, crossfade is no good and individually you write the velocities for each note.

Cheers,

Ricardo

I am sorry to put a damper to your enthusiasm, but don't you think there is a reason why the big collections cost considerably more than the special editions?

But however, the number of layers for the legato patches is in most cases the same with the full instruments. Have you seriously thougt through your suggestion to record more velocity layers? For perf_legatos? Amount-of-samples-to-be-recorded-wise this is like recording (and editing) half of the instrument again. This might be considered by VSL for future projects (for instance, the Dimension Strings perf_leg has already 4 instead of the usual 2 layers) but surely not something that will happen as an update soon!

But, if there are certain instruments that cause noticeable more problems than others, like the oboe, a re-programming, so that the range where actually two samples are heard is smaller, could indeed be a solution.

Massmover is completely right on this but he is being polite.  This post is totally incorrect:

"In my opinion, I think VSL team needs to fix this matter (soon). I know crossfade is cheap and a "cheat" but it is the only way for expressive legato and sustain phrases(if there is another way, please give me a reply)..."

There is no matter to be fixed.  It has been stated that crossfade works perfectly for ensembles, and for solo one can use either crossfade or, in other cases, the dynamic samples.  All of this is planned carefully to deal with the various issues that come up with dynamics.  The post suggesting it is a matter not being dealt with is way out of line and based on simple ignorance of what is actually recorded in the samples and how it can be used.  This person needs to learn more about the library before saying something needs to be fixed.

O.K. -  goodbye you wonderful people,  I am out of here.  I tried to post some helpful info but it is, apparently, pointless. 

Thank you both Massover and William, but before going further... I am not an Ignorant. I never paid any attention to these topics in the first place, but like every learner and every student. It is my righteous duty to study and gain knowledge about it. Even if I made an "Incorrect" statement... does It mean I have to be an ignorant and arrogant? If you call me an ignorant or any other name, I don't really mind actually. Respect needs to be present for everyone around. What William said, I'll take this into a deep study and gain more knowledge about VSL samples and how it works(crossfading and other things). I do have patience of what you wrote and even if you criticize me the most, I'll just ask for feedback, instead of posting wrong statements or making false accusements.

Thank you for your feedback.

@ricardojvc6 said:

...I am deeply sorry about it.

You are OK Ricardo

The sentence above clearly shows it.

Nevertheless, I try to give you a feedback for getting more the understanding of the situation.

I am 54 and I believe William "can count a similar amount of years". So we are another generation. When we had your age we learned:

- "Why do you believe that you are right - with no experience?

- "be modest"

- "thinking before talking" 

... and lots of such things.

Young people today come with an "unblieveble and hugely" self-convidence in our eyes - so that we (the oldies) feel some statements very impolite or cheeky.

Try to understand this:

Why do you believe, that you - young, inexperienced, as a beginner - are legitimated to say...

• that a lot of developmend engineers and
• a product that has been released years ago
• thousands of professional musicians

didn't seen that here is a fault which needs to be fixed... ?

Another example

Not long ago a student wanted to make a period of practical instruction in my company. Though he never earned money before he promised me that my profit will increase after his time beeing with me...

Why did he believe that he can increase my profit? He only saw schoolhouses... This appears arrogant in the eyes of us 50+

I agree you are not an ignorant or anything similar. But we "oldies" really can't understand this huge self-convidence of young people. We called that a bluff when we have been young. On the other hand I see that this seems to be the current standard today all over the world. So you are doing nothing wrong so far. Your reaction seems to be the modern one.

Nevertheless, I hope you also can understand why a statement of a beginner (...need to be fixed) appears like a provocation for our generation.

One last thing

William and I are not only "oldies" in life we also are old hands here in the forum (See when we joined here).

Unfortunately we are a bit tired of all those beginners who start to use VSL-samples, then it doesn't work how they believe it sould and the next step is a post here "there is a bug to fix".

So please also understand William's goodby and our tiredness in this point. The story with the bugs here and there over the last 10 years get on our nerves sometimes.

Nevertheless, we are still willing to help and to share our huge amount of collected experiences.

OK, dear Ricardo

I tried to show the other side of your point of view. It isn't important to fix which one could be the right one. The most important thing is the understanding of the other side.

I wish you a lot of success in using samples of VSL.

All the wonderfull demos will show you, that a lot of things are possible.

And if not: There are still real players around who like to play just the music you want...

Beat

 Thank you Beat Kaufmann. 

I do understand, very much. If I have any question, I might post them in the forum where I can have all the help of the other users. I understand your point of view completely. I don't want to seem rather helpless so I tried to help but It didn't seem to be any good to me; It indeed made me look cheeky and arrogant. I don't want to be a person that knows everything. I just don't want to be a bad person because of what happened.  

By the way, I saw your VI Pro Tips&Tricks and help and I find them to be very useful and helpful for me to understand more about the world of Samples. You wrote before "Try to play with the samples till you find the one you like the most". It seems pretty reasonable for me and I understand that completely. I find the dynamics to be very useful for me, most of the time when I want very nice crescendos and diminuendos. I will see more about your VI Pro Tips&Tricks and VSL website questions. It really can be very helpful for someone who is new to the world of samples! 

Thank you very much!

Cheers,

Ricardo