@Karel said:

Offline bouncing will not work though using IAC. We're working on a superior solution for this problem for the next update which will also allow offline bouncing in Logic.

Hello Karel,

With MIR you don't need bouncing tracks as you work directly on the MIX. The IAC is like the VSL Event midi, just sending the Midi to VSL, the audio that return from MIR does not change, it is using the VSL AU

Karel, did you also fix the 5.1 and 7.1 problem with Logic, why don't you send us a beta ? so we have our VSL caviar to eat for the 31th [;)]

A question about MIR

Is MIR condidered to be an INSERT ?

I had a discussion with Martin about the LFE, the LFE is made to output sound under 120hz, the 5 strings double bass can go down to 41 HZ

How are you dealing with the LFE if you use MIR ; as those sounds are also needing the reverberation of the hall

The entry to MIR is in mono or in stereo !!!

you need to route a 3rd signal for the LFE to MIR or extract frequencies under 120hz to send it to the LFE

Wish you all the best for 2012, if you could speak to the Logic devellopers and say we desesperatly need and equivalent to the VST MAP

Best

Cyril

A side-note regarding music mixes in surround:

It is a widely accepted convention amongst mixing engineers that the LFE shouldn't be used for actual signals in music. LFE means "Low Frequency Extension" or "Low Frequency Effects" and shouldn't be considered as the "subwoofer channel".

This means that the five (or seven) surround speakers should be addressed as full-range monitors. If a monitoring system really needs bass-management, this should be taken care for locally and not within the mix.

Kind regards,

Hi Dietz,

If you play on your double bass  or from your organ pedal board a note under 120 Hz you will not hear it as the 5 or the 7 speakers do no go under 120 HZ

The home teather system does no have big 38 cm speakers to produce the bass

If you read http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/zz-_Shared_Assets/English_PDFs/Professional/38_LFE.pdf

That is the reference for Dolby

The LFE channel is the 6th or the 8th channel

read also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-frequency_effects

Why you have 5.1 or 7.1 effects in Logic and in MIR you have only 5.0 and in 7.0

Why do you have 5.1 and LFE control in VEP 5 and not in MIR

If MIR cannot deal with 5.1 or 7.1 I have no use of it I want a refund

Best

Cyril

As Dietz correctly noted, bass management in the playback system is responsible of dividing energy between the speakers and the subwoofer. You should *not* use the LFE in your mix, unless there is something very specific, like cannon shots or in extreme cases the Gran Casa, for effect purposes.

Cyril, you should read this before you start making your usual accusations again.

-> Recommended Practice (Surround Sound Forum)

Some quotes:

@Another User said:

p.10:

3. Reproduction configurations: advice on installation and use

3.1 Reference configuration

[...]
For setting up the five loudspeakers, an arrangement in accordance with figure 4, on the basis of the recommendations
in ITU-R BS. 775-1 [1], and SMPTE [2] is recommended. This principle reproduction
standard is totally independent on the applied transmission system and recording processes, and should
not be confused with the different coding formats which are only partially standardized [...]

1 L Left Yellow
2 R Right Red
3 C Center Orange
4 Optional LFE and/or free available Grey
5 LS Left Surround Signal Blue
6 RS Right Surround Signal Green
7 Free available Optional, e.g. left with 2/0 Violett
8 Free available Optional, e.g. right with 2/0 Brown

In other words: The recommended setup is L R C Lfe Ls Rs.

... food for thought ...

Cyril, taking into account that you're a Logic user, you should read this, too:

-> Logic Documentation

... you can clearly see that even Apple knows that the "offcial" ITU-channel order is L R C Lfe Ls Rs - it's just that they have decided deliberately to use a different implementation as default setting.

Hello Dietz and Martin,

Calm down, we are just speaking, I am not making any accusation, just trying to find a solution

There are a solution to all problems.

 I have a Denon AVR 3808, it is a 7.1 system for just watching TV, if I turn off the LFE the sound if very weak, no bass

When I did the trials I was told that 5.1 did not work and only 5.0 was working because Logic sending a wrong code back to the AU and you where speaking with Logic people to fix this. I was never told that I cannot have 5.1 in MIR

I follow the rules of Dolby that is saying you must sperate the bass channel to avoid distorsion and to play sound under 120 on the LFE

I dot make accusation, just allow MIR to route basses to the LFE, and I am happy or refund me of MIR

I have not spend so much money to have a reverberation that is inferior than the one that is in Logic

It is very easy to write a little pluging that does what is done in VEP5 for 5.1 panning, this to route some of the signal of the bass instruments and apply it the reverberation of the hall and send the signal to Logic so the track can be processed with the other 5 tracks to code this in Dolby

I am open to any solution as soon I have a MIR 5.1 out

Thanks in advance to find a solution

Best

Cyril

@Cyril said:

[...]

I dot make accusation, just allow MIR to route basses to the LFE, and I am happy or refund me of MIR [...]

You obviously didn't read (or don't want to understand) what both Martin and I were trying to explain.

I suggest you get in contact with to have your MIR Pro license removed from your account and to arrange the refund you're requesting.

Regards,

@Dietz said:

You obviously didn't read (or don't want to understand) what both Martin and I were trying to explain.

I think I have understand your point of view, MIR is not made for musician that are writing music for films. It is made to reproduce hall ambiance of a classical concert

Am I wrong ?

I was loving MIR it is a GREAT SOFTWARE, it is a pitty that you cannot improve it so it can be also used  for dolby Film music requirement.

i will contact Sales

All the best for 2012

Best

Cyril

I don't see how I can improve on my last post, so I'll simply refer to it again.

@MS said:

I don't see how I can improve on my last post, so I'll simply refer to it again.

Hello Martin,

Do you have a 5.1 or 7.1 system on your TV set ?

If yes, watch a movie from a Blue Ray disk with sound in Dolby, Dolby PLIIX, DTS.... and turn on and off the LFE during heavy musical parts, you will ear no more bass, the drums kick will be very week, the bass synth too.

While writing this I am watching ARTE HD, the best of 2011 for classical music, I can tell you that in some pieces they use the LFE 

I have a few questions :

- In the Mixer If you place a surround panning before or under MIR what is happening ? (they may be a solution there and to add a little reverb in Logic)

- Did you solve with Logic people the 5.0 problem ?

All the best for 2012

Cyril

You won't read it anyway, but I'll explain it to you for the 5th or 6th time:

You don't "turn off the LFE" in these bass-managed TV-surround sets, you're turning off the sub-woofer. Like pointed out before, that's not the same.

It's almost certain that the sub-woofer will also carry the LFE-signal, but without checking the raw audio data you won't know what really went into this channel.

I mixed several dozens of huge music productions in surround, some of them became award-winning, multi-platinum selling products. They were mastered in the most esteemed mastering houses in Europe, where no-one ever complained. I can tell you that apart from a little "woop woop" from a bass-drum (just for the sake of it) there was no signal in the LFE channel whatsoever.

@Cyril said:

[...]

- In the Mixer If you place a surround panning before or under MIR what is happening ?

[...]

Like mentioned in MIR Pro's manual, remove / don't use the surround panner in a channel that carries a MIR Pro signal.

@Cyril said:

[...]

i will contact Sales

[...]

Yes please, do that.

@Cyril said:

While writing this I am watching ARTE HD, the best of 2011 for classical music, I can tell you that in some pieces they use the LFE 

ARTE only broadcasts dolby surround signals in 2.0, there's absolutely no transmission of a .1 channel.

The signal that you obviously hear from your subwoofer is being created by some kind of bass management of your receiver.

You shouldn't think about using the LFE channel for a music soundtrack as it's not made for that purpose, most soundtracks are in fact only 4.0

best regards

Florian

@florian said:

ARTE only broadcasts dolby surround signals in 2.0, there's absolutely no transmission of a .1 channel.

The signal that you obviously hear from your subwoofer is being created by some kind of bass management of your receiver.

You shouldn't think about using the LFE channel for a music soundtrack as it's not made for that purpose, most soundtracks are in fact only 4.0

best regards

Florian

sorry Florian you have to check your sources :

http://investor.dolby.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=344375

PARIS, Oct 31, 2008.........

 Initial services available on TNT HD include popular channels TF1 HD, France 2 HD, ARTE HD, Canal+ HD, and M6 HD. Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby Digital audio will allow viewers to enjoy broadcasts in 5.1 surround sound as well as stereo.

@Cyril said:

sorry Florian you have to check your sources :

http://investor.dolby.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=344375

PARIS, Oct 31, 2008.........

Cyril, you really can trust me, in this case my sources are the best one could possibly imagine.

best regards

@Dietz said:

You don't "turn off the LFE" in these bass-managed TV-surround sets, you're turning off the sub-woofer. Like pointed out before, that's not the same.

It's almost certain that the sub-woofer will also carry the LFE-signal, but without checking the raw audio data you won't know what really went into this channel.

I have re-read the documentation of the Denon 3808.

We are talking of the same but not using the same words, on the documentation of my Denon amplifier you set the subwoofer to play LFE or LFE + Main

now we are in agrement ! [;)]

Hello Dietz and Martin

I have Email you what could be a solution.

Best

Cyril

We have investigated the surround handling in Logic. The problem is that Logic is sending wrong configurations to the VEPro AU Plugin. Logic can even request configurations that the plugin reportedly does not support, which is a breach of the AU specification from Logics side. We have tried to create several workarounds for this, without success. We are awaiting reply from Apple developers on how to proceed in this matter.

So for now, when using Logic and using a 5.1 or 6.1 surround setup, the VEPro plugin will be initialized as 5.0 or 6.0 respectively. However, since the LFE channel should never be used for music mixing, it should not be much of an issue. Hopefully Apple gets around to solving this bug as soon as possible.