@kleinholgi said:

I think "overkill mode" is the right statement here .)

The question for me would be if you do this as your core business (film/score...) on a professional basis where you need 100% performance, stability and backup security. At the same time can you profit from expenditures speaking of tax deductions and stuff like that ?

Also, how many performance heavy instruments do you plan to use at the same time ?

i mean, we still speak about music production, not NASA´s mission to Mars. In our company we have some computers running heavy duty simulation tasks (Synopsis and stuff like that). Even they run with non ECC RAM out of the box.

If you care for stability, I´d buy a good motherboard with excellent cooling, and wouldn´t overclock the system, even if you loose a few % of possible performance.

Thanks for your feedback, kleinholgi.  I'm a composer, but -- these days -- not for commercial applications like film/TV or ads.  However, I do make my living as a music instructor and music consultant  and can therefore write everything off as an expense.   I've been using GigaStudio, Cubase, and Vienna samples on an ordinary, consumer-level PC for years, and - now that I'm moving up to a Windows 7 machine and VI - I would really like to leave the glitches, crashes, CPU- and RAM- congestion behind!  Although I usually write for smaller orchestral ensembles, I would like to have the option of using the complete orchestra - along with as many non-orchestral instruments I may decide to include --  with as many articulations as I have/would like to use -- and as with as much processing as I can learn to do properly.   

Some of my peers have said 16GB RAM on a regular machine will suffice, while others have advised to "get as much RAM as you can afford!".   From what I've been learning (and my knowledge of this stuff is very basic), the only way to get more RAM is via a server board.  While I can't afford a $5000 machine, I'm willing to spend more than the cost of a typical consumer machine if it will mean fewer hassles and happier computer composing. 

Toward that end, I'd welcome any feedback, including motherboard, CPU, and RAM types/models/amounts.

Thanks!

@michael_maberly said:

Thanks for your feedback, kleinholgi.  I'm a composer, but -- these days -- not for commercial applications like film/TV or ads.  However, I do make my living as a music instructor and music consultant  and can therefore write everything off as an expense.   I've been using GigaStudio, Cubase, and Vienna samples on an ordinary, consumer-level PC for years, and - now that I'm moving up to a Windows 7 machine and VI - I would really like to leave the glitches, crashes, CPU- and RAM- congestion behind!  Although I usually write for smaller orchestral ensembles, I would like to have the option of using the complete orchestra - along with as many non-orchestral instruments I may decide to include --  with as many articulations as I have/would like to use -- and as with as much processing as I can learn to do properly.   

Some of my peers have said 16GB RAM on a regular machine will suffice, while others have advised to "get as much RAM as you can afford!".   From what I've been learning (and my knowledge of this stuff is very basic), the only way to get more RAM is via a server board.  While I can't afford a $5000 machine, I'm willing to spend more than the cost of a typical consumer machine if it will mean fewer hassles and happier computer composing. 

Toward that end, I'd welcome any feedback, including motherboard, CPU, and RAM types/models/amounts.

Thanks!

Michael,

Most i7 motherboards can take up to 24 GB of RAM these days. There's no need to go to a server board to get 24 gigs. Recently I've built a slave system which includes the following components, and everything seems to be working very well together. I haven't pushed this system to any major limits yet, but I'm confident it can handle quite a lot. It also allows for a bit of overclocking, if I'm feeling plucky. (Actually overclocking is easy and dumbed down for folks like me on this Asus motherboard.)

Anyway, here it is -- a micro ATX factor slave to do my bidding:

ASUS Rampage II Gene (micro atx motherboard)

24 GB (6x4) Gskill RAM (Model F3-10666CL9T2-24GBRL)

i7 920 2.66 ghz

4 WD 500 gb caviar black hard drives

Gskill makes very good RAM; I've never had a problem with it. And Asus makes very good boards. I can confirm that these two work well together.

Hope that helps,

Mahlon

@Mahlon said:

Most i7 motherboards can take up to 24 GB of RAM these days. There's no need to go to a server board to get 24 gigs. Recently I've built a slave system which includes the following components, and everything seems to be working very well together.

Thanks for taking the time to write, Mahlon - I appreciate it!

My plan is to have most of my music apps (Cubase 5, VSE (complete), Vienna Ensemble, Notion 3, Sound Forge, Finale) on the new machine, while running GigaStudio on my XP, with some kind of Midi-over-lan and audio cable connecting the two.  I'm guessing that having my sequencer on the new machine will make that the Master, and XP the slave.  Do you think that will have any negative effect on the setup that you cite?

Beyond that, I guess the main questions remaining for me are: 

• Is it likely that we'll be needing more than 24GB to run full libraries, etc, in, say, five years?  
  
• If so, is it less expensive, in the long run, to buy a machine that has the capacity for far more RAM now, rather than have to buy a new machine in five years?
• Is ECC worth the investment, in terms of system stability and - ultimately - a more hassle-free music computer experience?

Thanks again!

Hi Michael,

O.K., if you run in professional mode, the cost aspect maybe different (I think it deeply depends on the individual tax situation).

Nevertheless saving money ist most often the better choice IMO :)

O.K. , do we need 24 GB or more Ram in five years ?  Possible. But I would never buy a PC to be valid for a time scale that long. This doesn´t mean that I´d refuse and automatically throw it away, but actively planning with such an immense overhead, that a machine of today can compete with one in more than 5 years is possible but extremely expensive. Most often it is a better choice to just buy a new computer when the time comes.

Of course new installations are a very nasty point, expecially with hardware locked software products, all the serial numbers etc ( where was the plastic box with that tiny sticker forgotten about 6 years ago.......?  ), but sometimes it is a good way to refresh the system setup anyway and migration tools also keep getting better.

I guarantee you that you will be sneeking around the $900 mid-sized-out-of-the-box gaming PCs, which every supermarket will sell in 4 years and offset the performance of the high end machines that we can buy now ( ....O.K we are not talking about IBM Blue Jean or something like that, not to speak of the often mentioned CRAY, "the only computer running an endless lopp in less than ..." :[:D]   , at least you can sit on it and enjoy the waterfall cooling , by the way the German Tech Museum in Munich has one of that, everytime a must see/sit on....)

Coming to ECC , I didn´t follow the price lists lately, but I fear it will get expensive and you have not so many products to choose from. If you motherboard can handle it and you are willing to pay the price, go ahead, but I think this will bring you directly to the server platforms, because Intel usually shuts down the ECC support in their non server lines, although the controller could deliver it in theory. There may be workarounds  (X58 series ? ) , but you have to make sure before buying.

I wouldn´t do it, if it would be for my system.

It maybe different for live TV broadcast applications or something like that, where I could understand it, but even if the sequencer crashes 1 in 10000 times because of a memory instability ...... in a studio environment Microsoft, Adobe, Flash, Shockwave, GFX , audiodrivers, and so on crashed 100 times before.

If you want to care for your RAM, cool it well. Put good ventilation into the PC casing and/or mount some extra heatspreaders if needed. Usually the modern RAM sticks come with them directly integrated, at least the better ones.

When you seek for performance -> Buy at least one SSD for the boot system. if you like it and there is some spare money also consider one for samples. Although I think we will see a big price drop for these items in the future, but as said in the beginning : Don´t look back on former price/performance rations when it comes to electronics.

@kleinholgi said:

saving money ist most often the better choice. . .  Most often it is a better choice to just buy a new computer when the time comes. . . Coming to ECC ,  . . .in a studio environment Microsoft, Adobe, Flash, Shockwave, GFX , audiodrivers, and so on crashed 100 times before. . . Buy at least one SSD for the boot system

Thanks for your very thoughtful and thorough reply, Kleinholgi -- I appreciate it!   I'm expecting some cost quotes from my retailer, soon, and I will definitely keep your's, CM's and Mahlon's generous advice in mind when determining the best way forward.

You´re welcome. Let us know what system made it the end.

Greetings

kh

@michael_maberly said:

Thanks for taking the time to write, Mahlon - I appreciate it!

My plan is to have most of my music apps (Cubase 5, VSE (complete), Vienna Ensemble, Notion 3, Sound Forge, Finale) on the new machine, while running GigaStudio on my XP, with some kind of Midi-over-lan and audio cable connecting the two.  I'm guessing that having my sequencer on the new machine will make that the Master, and XP the slave.  Do you think that will have any negative effect on the setup that you cite?

Beyond that, I guess the main questions remaining for me are: 

• Is it likely that we'll be needing more than 24GB to run full libraries, etc, in, say, five years?  
  
• If so, is it less expensive, in the long run, to buy a machine that has the capacity for far more RAM now, rather than have to buy a new machine in five years?
• Is ECC worth the investment, in terms of system stability and - ultimately - a more hassle-free music computer experience?

Thanks again!

That sounds like a setup that would work. Not sure about the MOL as I've never used it. Yes, your machine with the sequencer on it would be your master. I'm guessing you'd probably also have VE Pro set up on your slave running beside Giga?

I wouldn't necessarily think about building a computer for 5 years' insurance. So many things will change between now and then with processors, in/out, busses etc. that you'd be upgrading your motherboard most likely before then. 24 gigs of RAM is certainly plenty to run a large orchestral setup with room to spare. If I were you I'd start there, or maybe even at 12 gigs (3 x 4 gig modules) and add another 12 gigs later if you see that you need it. One point to consider is that when buying your memory, if you do buy it 12 gigs now, 12 gigs, later that the memory you buy later is the same brand and product number as the first 12. It's not absolutely critical, but it just helps cut down on compatibility headaches, perhaps.

I don't know about ECC, but for sample playback and streaming applications, I can't imagine that it would add benefits.

Best,
Mahlon

Thanks, Mahlon!

@Another User said:

I wouldn't necessarily think about building a computer for 5 years' insurance  . . . 24 gigs of RAM is certainly plenty to run a large orchestral setup with room to spare. . .  I don't know about ECC, but for sample playback and streaming applications, I can't imagine that it would add benefits.

I really appreciate the feedback!  It seems the consensus is that 24GB RAM should be more than enough, that paying more for a longer-lasting system doesn't really add up, and that ECC probably won't make much difference.   I will definitely keep this in mind!

Thanks again!

 You're very welcome. You may want to check with someone else as to whether ECC has benefits or not. I'm not really 100% sure on my thoughts.

Mahlon

read this thread :

http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/28664/185559.aspx#185559

SSD are great  and with an improvement coming in VE PRO  you will be able to make more out if it

Best

Cyril

I think it doesn´t matter that much if you take the library or the recording external path. The point is to have separate drives for the tasks and not put the operation system, sequencer programs, plug ins, audio recording/sampling and samples/streaming libraries all on the same physical drive.

It is always a good idea to split up the tasks, ideally not only between different drives but also between different controller pipelines.

What connection are you going to use with your external Lacie drive ? if you have eSATA, do whatever you want, it will be fine. If you use USB, it will also work, but be a little bit more careful when it comes to heavy data loading.

The perfect situation will be dedicated drives for OS, audio recording and library. But it will also work nicely with 2 drives, if your´re not going for the biggest and most complex orchestra setups. Of course there may be situations asking for different SSDs dedicated to every single library and Raid setups for audio on top. But the "overkill mode" was already mentioned :)

Although being a big fan of Firewire, USB is a good choice in this case, because if you have two clients on one FIrewire port, it can be a better idea to put the second one on USB, even if in other cases I´d prefer the Firewire connection.

I´m sure your system will be fast enough to get you going.

On the other hand there will always be people complaning about the performance of their octo SSD Enigma Raid, when trying to stream 20 string sections at once for an orchestral crossover between Wagner, Mahler and the Chemical Brothers :)

If you look for an update, watch out for a SSD where you can put either your OS or the sample library on.

The best optimisation is :

1 HD or SSD for system

1 HD with :

- 1st partition for VM

- 2nd for your songs

1 or 2 SSD or even a raid of SSD for VSL libs 

1 HD for your other libs

1 HD to stream your songs 

Use eSata or Sata, if possible SATA III

I doubt that Imac is not a good idea if you want to handle a big orchestra, if your are blocked you can always add slaves

This would be true, if you had practically unlimited RAM and unlimited bandwidth for data transfer to the internal memory.

But as long as our typical systems still need some time to load sounds & samples, it is better to use the ressources wise and let  the controllers do their job as efficient as possible.

Since we know that the system is doing all kinds off stuff in the background - usually when we hate it the most - loading samples can increase the time that you have to wait until 1. the system is ready with its backup, defrag, virus scan, sector check or whatever kind of weird stuff is going on, although you just want to fire up your sequencer. And 2. you wait longer before your samples are loaded.

If you then made two partitions where the read head constantly has to switch between e.g. " Virus scan wants me to check sector A" and "VSL player asks for sample ZZZ99" on the opposite side of the disc platter (speaking simplified), you can imagine what happens. If you have two seperate discs or even better solid state discs, where there is no  physical read head at all,  the devices can operate more or less in parallel, especially when using also two dedicated controller pipelines, which don´t get in the way of each other.

VM has to be alone on a partition ; this is to avoid to have the VM files fragmented, to fasten memory access

Same with Samples ; it is better to have then on a Raid 0 of disk if you do not want to wait ages to load your samples ; my Orchestral templates loads all L2 preset for Wind and Brass; all SE articulations for percussions and Strings, All articulations for Appassionata

I use the 24 GB of memory, and my Swap is 4 GB.

As I have my samples on a raid of SSD ; it does not seems to penalize Disk/memory/CPU  playing a very complex orchestral piece.

If you have different disk for System and the VSL lib it is to avoid fragmentation too

Best

Cyril

Sometimes, I have the same problems with formatting.

I think what helped was to set "full HTML editor" or something like that in the forum user preferences.

If you are unsure, better type 2 returns.

Regarding Raid your´re right. Raid 0 is for speed (more risky) , Raid 1 for more data security.

If you are looking for speed, I would go for a SSD instead these days.

I love to have the OS on it, because it optimizes general working speed, booting and all the nasty background stuff.

For recording, a regular HD is fast enough.

Putting samples on SSD can be a good idea, if you want to reduce your waiting time, but the larger your library is, the more expensive it will get.

Also remember, external is O.K., but why not connect an additional drive inside the computer ? This will save some money and usually the internal SATA ports are the fastest you have ( but I´m not a Mac expert at all).

Especially an internal SSD is nice, because you have less noise and lower temperature, no need for extra fans or weird silent mounting cages.

When you put the system data on a SSD, remember to have a backup copy.

I have two such systems in use for ~6months now and never had a problem, but you never know how stable these SSDs are in the long run.

But let´s assume you put  VSL on an external 1.5TB discs, there should be plenty of free space left to do backups of your SSD boot partition onto that same drive as well.

If you need all this, really depends on how many instruments you want to fire up at the same time, at which audio latency, with which audio interface and how much realtime experience you ask for.

It is easily possible that one creates music with VSL on a laptop, where another one thinks about further extensions of his HAL quadro RAID helium cooling workstation an is still not satisfied.....

My guess is, if you use two dedicated drives, you wil be fine.