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    for imaging i'm using Acronis True Image ... home edition 😉 boots from CD, recognizes almost all kind of drives. of course you can also use ghost, i just don't like it ...

    @michael_maberly said:

    Can a server-type Windows 7 computer (I've been told that I must buy a server-type machine in order to use more than 24 GB RAM -- is that true?) accept two non-SSDs plus one SSD?

    i7 motherboards usually have 6 memory slots and i'm not aware of any i7 motherboard taking more than 6 x 4 GB RAM ....

    so if you want to get more you need a dual processor (socket) motherboard and some XEON processors - but hey, you can go very far with 24 GB RAM.

    number of SSDs and non-SSDs only depends on the number of sATA ports you have on the motherboard (subtract one for the DVD-drive and on some motherboards there is one dedicated to eSATA (external SATA) ... eg my X58 motherboard here has 5 ports + 1 eSATA, so i can add 4 drives (plus the DVD) of whatever type i like (as long as they are sATA of course)


    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    Thanks very much for all this help!

    @Another User said:

    so if you want to get more you need a dual processor (socket) motherboard and some XEON processors

    Yes, that's what my retailer is proposing.  Will I need the two CPUs to access more than 24GB RAM, or can I use only one XEON processor, and leave the other socket empty, and still have access to all the RAM?

    Thanks again!


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    you might be on the road to the overkill-mode 😉

    @michael_maberly said:

    Will I need the two CPUs to access more than 24GB RAM, or can I use only one XEON processor, and leave the other socket empty, and still have access to all the RAM?

    no, at least the motherboards i know don't support that ... exception: there are 8 GB sticks for XEON boards (DDR3 ECC buffered) -> 6 x 8 = 48 GB ...

    there *should* be also 8 GB sticks for i7 boards, but if you would even find them (and a motherboard which supports it) they would be _very_ expensive ...


    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • [quote=michael_maberly]Will I need the

    Hmm. . . and my retailer was even suggesting that I use a much less expensive Intel E5504 Quad Core, 2 Ghz, 4MB cache for it . . . I'm now wondering whether two of those would even access all the RAM!

    If I were to go the i7 route, would you recommend trying to find ECC RAM for it -- I've heard it makes for a more stable system -- or does ECC not make much difference?

    Thanks again!


  • for a - somehow futureproof - audio machine i wouldn't go below a 5620 ... i7 doesn't take ECC, XEON requires ECC memory


    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
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    @cm said:

    for a - somehow futureproof - audio machine i wouldn't go below a 5620 ... i7 doesn't take ECC, XEON requires ECC memory

    Thanks for this very helpful advice!


  • I think "overkill mode" is the right statement here .)

    The question for me would be if you do this as your core business (film/score...) on a professional basis where you need 100% performance, stability and backup security. At the same time can you profit from expenditures speaking of tax deductions and stuff like that ?

    Also, how many performance heavy instruments do you plan to use at the same time ?

    i mean, we still speak about music production, not NASA´s mission to Mars. In our company we have some computers running heavy duty simulation tasks (Synopsis and stuff like that). Even they run with non ECC RAM out of the box.

    If you care for stability, I´d buy a good motherboard with excellent cooling, and wouldn´t overclock the system, even if you loose a few % of possible performance.


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    @kleinholgi said:

    I think "overkill mode" is the right statement here .)

    The question for me would be if you do this as your core business (film/score...) on a professional basis where you need 100% performance, stability and backup security. At the same time can you profit from expenditures speaking of tax deductions and stuff like that ?

    Also, how many performance heavy instruments do you plan to use at the same time ?

    i mean, we still speak about music production, not NASA´s mission to Mars. In our company we have some computers running heavy duty simulation tasks (Synopsis and stuff like that). Even they run with non ECC RAM out of the box.

    If you care for stability, I´d buy a good motherboard with excellent cooling, and wouldn´t overclock the system, even if you loose a few % of possible performance.

    Thanks for your feedback, kleinholgi.  I'm a composer, but -- these days -- not for commercial applications like film/TV or ads.  However, I do make my living as a music instructor and music consultant  and can therefore write everything off as an expense.   I've been using GigaStudio, Cubase, and Vienna samples on an ordinary, consumer-level PC for years, and - now that I'm moving up to a Windows 7 machine and VI - I would really like to leave the glitches, crashes, CPU- and RAM- congestion behind!  Although I usually write for smaller orchestral ensembles, I would like to have the option of using the complete orchestra - along with as many non-orchestral instruments I may decide to include --  with as many articulations as I have/would like to use -- and as with as much processing as I can learn to do properly.   

    Some of my peers have said 16GB RAM on a regular machine will suffice, while others have advised to "get as much RAM as you can afford!".   From what I've been learning (and my knowledge of this stuff is very basic), the only way to get more RAM is via a server board.  While I can't afford a $5000 machine, I'm willing to spend more than the cost of a typical consumer machine if it will mean fewer hassles and happier computer composing. 

    Toward that end, I'd welcome any feedback, including motherboard, CPU, and RAM types/models/amounts.

    Thanks!


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    @michael_maberly said:

    Thanks for your feedback, kleinholgi.  I'm a composer, but -- these days -- not for commercial applications like film/TV or ads.  However, I do make my living as a music instructor and music consultant  and can therefore write everything off as an expense.   I've been using GigaStudio, Cubase, and Vienna samples on an ordinary, consumer-level PC for years, and - now that I'm moving up to a Windows 7 machine and VI - I would really like to leave the glitches, crashes, CPU- and RAM- congestion behind!  Although I usually write for smaller orchestral ensembles, I would like to have the option of using the complete orchestra - along with as many non-orchestral instruments I may decide to include --  with as many articulations as I have/would like to use -- and as with as much processing as I can learn to do properly.   

    Some of my peers have said 16GB RAM on a regular machine will suffice, while others have advised to "get as much RAM as you can afford!".   From what I've been learning (and my knowledge of this stuff is very basic), the only way to get more RAM is via a server board.  While I can't afford a $5000 machine, I'm willing to spend more than the cost of a typical consumer machine if it will mean fewer hassles and happier computer composing. 

    Toward that end, I'd welcome any feedback, including motherboard, CPU, and RAM types/models/amounts.

    Thanks!

     

    Michael,

    Most i7 motherboards can take up to 24 GB of RAM these days. There's no need to go to a server board to get 24 gigs. Recently I've built a slave system which includes the following components, and everything seems to be working very well together. I haven't pushed this system to any major limits yet, but I'm confident it can handle quite a lot. It also allows for a bit of overclocking, if I'm feeling plucky. (Actually overclocking is easy and dumbed down for folks like me on this Asus motherboard.)

    Anyway, here it is -- a micro ATX factor slave to do my bidding:

    ASUS Rampage II Gene (micro atx motherboard)

    24 GB (6x4) Gskill RAM (Model F3-10666CL9T2-24GBRL)

    i7 920 2.66 ghz

    4 WD 500 gb caviar black hard drives

    Gskill makes very good RAM; I've never had a problem with it. And Asus makes very good boards. I can confirm that these two work well together.

    Hope that helps,

    Mahlon


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    @Mahlon said:

    Most i7 motherboards can take up to 24 GB of RAM these days. There's no need to go to a server board to get 24 gigs. Recently I've built a slave system which includes the following components, and everything seems to be working very well together.

    Thanks for taking the time to write, Mahlon - I appreciate it!

    My plan is to have most of my music apps (Cubase 5, VSE (complete), Vienna Ensemble, Notion 3, Sound Forge, Finale) on the new machine, while running GigaStudio on my XP, with some kind of Midi-over-lan and audio cable connecting the two.  I'm guessing that having my sequencer on the new machine will make that the Master, and XP the slave.  Do you think that will have any negative effect on the setup that you cite?

    Beyond that, I guess the main questions remaining for me are: 

    • Is it likely that we'll be needing more than 24GB to run full libraries, etc, in, say, five years?  
    • If so, is it less expensive, in the long run, to buy a machine that has the capacity for far more RAM now, rather than have to buy a new machine in five years?
    • Is ECC worth the investment, in terms of system stability and - ultimately - a more hassle-free music computer experience?

    Thanks again!


  • Hi Michael,

    O.K., if you run in professional mode, the cost aspect maybe different (I think it deeply depends on the individual tax situation).

    Nevertheless saving money ist most often the better choice IMO :)

    O.K. , do we need 24 GB or more Ram in five years ?  Possible. But I would never buy a PC to be valid for a time scale that long. This doesn´t mean that I´d refuse and automatically throw it away, but actively planning with such an immense overhead, that a machine of today can compete with one in more than 5 years is possible but extremely expensive. Most often it is a better choice to just buy a new computer when the time comes.

    Of course new installations are a very nasty point, expecially with hardware locked software products, all the serial numbers etc ( where was the plastic box with that tiny sticker forgotten about 6 years ago.......?  ), but sometimes it is a good way to refresh the system setup anyway and migration tools also keep getting better.

    I guarantee you that you will be sneeking around the $900 mid-sized-out-of-the-box gaming PCs, which every supermarket will sell in 4 years and offset the performance of the high end machines that we can buy now ( ....O.K we are not talking about IBM Blue Jean or something like that, not to speak of the often mentioned CRAY, "the only computer running an endless lopp in less than ..." :[:D]   , at least you can sit on it and enjoy the waterfall cooling , by the way the German Tech Museum in Munich has one of that, everytime a must see/sit on....)

    Coming to ECC , I didn´t follow the price lists lately, but I fear it will get expensive and you have not so many products to choose from. If you motherboard can handle it and you are willing to pay the price, go ahead, but I think this will bring you directly to the server platforms, because Intel usually shuts down the ECC support in their non server lines, although the controller could deliver it in theory. There may be workarounds  (X58 series ? ) , but you have to make sure before buying.

    I wouldn´t do it, if it would be for my system.

    It maybe different for live TV broadcast applications or something like that, where I could understand it, but even if the sequencer crashes 1 in 10000 times because of a memory instability ...... in a studio environment Microsoft, Adobe, Flash, Shockwave, GFX , audiodrivers, and so on crashed 100 times before.

    If you want to care for your RAM, cool it well. Put good ventilation into the PC casing and/or mount some extra heatspreaders if needed. Usually the modern RAM sticks come with them directly integrated, at least the better ones.

    When you seek for performance -> Buy at least one SSD for the boot system. if you like it and there is some spare money also consider one for samples. Although I think we will see a big price drop for these items in the future, but as said in the beginning : Don´t look back on former price/performance rations when it comes to electronics.


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    @kleinholgi said:

    saving money ist most often the better choice. . .  Most often it is a better choice to just buy a new computer when the time comes. . . Coming to ECC ,  . . .in a studio environment Microsoft, Adobe, Flash, Shockwave, GFX , audiodrivers, and so on crashed 100 times before. . . Buy at least one SSD for the boot system

    Thanks for your very thoughtful and thorough reply, Kleinholgi -- I appreciate it!   I'm expecting some cost quotes from my retailer, soon, and I will definitely keep your's, CM's and Mahlon's generous advice in mind when determining the best way forward.


  • You´re welcome. Let us know what system made it the end.

    Greetings

    kh


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    @michael_maberly said:

    Thanks for taking the time to write, Mahlon - I appreciate it!

    My plan is to have most of my music apps (Cubase 5, VSE (complete), Vienna Ensemble, Notion 3, Sound Forge, Finale) on the new machine, while running GigaStudio on my XP, with some kind of Midi-over-lan and audio cable connecting the two.  I'm guessing that having my sequencer on the new machine will make that the Master, and XP the slave.  Do you think that will have any negative effect on the setup that you cite?

    Beyond that, I guess the main questions remaining for me are: 

    • Is it likely that we'll be needing more than 24GB to run full libraries, etc, in, say, five years?  
    • If so, is it less expensive, in the long run, to buy a machine that has the capacity for far more RAM now, rather than have to buy a new machine in five years?
    • Is ECC worth the investment, in terms of system stability and - ultimately - a more hassle-free music computer experience?

    Thanks again!

     

    That sounds like a setup that would work. Not sure about the MOL as I've never used it. Yes, your machine with the sequencer on it would be your master. I'm guessing you'd probably also have VE Pro set up on your slave running beside Giga?

    I wouldn't necessarily think about building a computer for 5 years' insurance. So many things will change between now and then with processors, in/out, busses etc. that you'd be upgrading your motherboard most likely before then. 24 gigs of RAM is certainly plenty to run a large orchestral setup with room to spare. If I were you I'd start there, or maybe even at 12 gigs (3 x 4 gig modules) and add another 12 gigs later if you see that you need it. One point to consider is that when buying your memory, if you do buy it 12 gigs now, 12 gigs, later that the memory you buy later is the same brand and product number as the first 12. It's not absolutely critical, but it just helps cut down on compatibility headaches, perhaps.

    I don't know about ECC, but for sample playback and streaming applications, I can't imagine that it would add benefits.

    Best,
    Mahlon


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    Thanks, Mahlon!

    @Another User said:

    I wouldn't necessarily think about building a computer for 5 years' insurance  . . . 24 gigs of RAM is certainly plenty to run a large orchestral setup with room to spare. . .  I don't know about ECC, but for sample playback and streaming applications, I can't imagine that it would add benefits.

    I really appreciate the feedback!  It seems the consensus is that 24GB RAM should be more than enough, that paying more for a longer-lasting system doesn't really add up, and that ECC probably won't make much difference.   I will definitely keep this in mind!

    Thanks again!


  •  You're very welcome. You may want to check with someone else as to whether ECC has benefits or not. I'm not really 100% sure on my thoughts.

    Mahlon


  • I have a new system and am a relative newby to Macs, Pro Tools, and VS. System: iMac27 3.4 8GB Pro Tools 9 Focusrite Liquid 56 Reason 1T LaCie d2 quadra. I was advised to think of the d2 as my "tape" and dedicate that for my recordings only, keeping my libraries on the iMac HD. The VS video recommends that I put the Library on an external Drive. I've got conflicting advise here. I don't think I'll be taxing the system. I'm mostly going to be writing songs with light chamber orchestrations and I'm told that I have more than enough horsepower with this system. However, I may try my hand at writing for larger orchestrations so I'm looking for optimal performance and reasonable load-times. Suggestions? Thanks

  • read this thread :

    http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/28664/185559.aspx#185559

    SSD are great  and with an improvement coming in VE PRO  you will be able to make more out if it

    Best

    Cyril


    MacBook Pro M3 MAX 128 GB 8TB - 2 x 48" screen --- Logic Pro --- Mir Pro 3D --- Most of the VI libs, a few Synch... libs --- Quite a few Kontakt libs --- CS80 fanatic
  • I think it doesn´t matter that much if you take the library or the recording external path. The point is to have separate drives for the tasks and not put the operation system, sequencer programs, plug ins, audio recording/sampling and samples/streaming libraries all on the same physical drive.

    It is always a good idea to split up the tasks, ideally not only between different drives but also between different controller pipelines.

    What connection are you going to use with your external Lacie drive ? if you have eSATA, do whatever you want, it will be fine. If you use USB, it will also work, but be a little bit more careful when it comes to heavy data loading.

    The perfect situation will be dedicated drives for OS, audio recording and library. But it will also work nicely with 2 drives, if your´re not going for the biggest and most complex orchestra setups. Of course there may be situations asking for different SSDs dedicated to every single library and Raid setups for audio on top. But the "overkill mode" was already mentioned :)


  • kleinholgi, Thanks, I guess the rational for recording to the external was that it is less likely to be called on for extraneous processes. Right now -- I'm using USB, because I had some trouble getting the firewire to daisy-chain through the Focusrite to the external. The iMac only has one firewire port. I'll fool around with it a bit more, and worse case is I'll wait for Apple to come up with firewire adapters for their Thunderbolt protocol. ..or just get another HD as you suggested. I was running the same system on my first 21"iMac with a two-core i3 processor and 4GB. So with double the RAM and an i7 processor, I'm confident that I'm in good shape. I'm just looking to optimize things.