@mathis said:

Is that maybe a constructive comment?

I'm going to preface with, I haven't seen most of these movies, and I never will. It's strictly-from-commercial most of it, and it doesn't get my wallet out.

@Another User said:

What matters is what works - and I can't help but suspect that the real lack of appeal to this school of 'sound design is the new music' brigade is the rather irritating amount of training and years of experience it takes to have the skill to produce work like JW's.

Hi Gianna,

I think the point I was trying to make is that there are people who express the opinion that there is only one style of composition (i.e. their's) which is the right way to compose film music in 2010 and that traditional classically based orchestration is dead. Conveniently (based only on my experience) the style they propose (using drum loops, off the shelf midi files, synth drones, Symphobia ( a product incidentally I often use myself for the brass ensemble patches), 'cinematic ambience effects' CDs and so forth) take way less time and skill to programme than something like VSL. If you've taken a look at any of Guy Bacos' tutorials it's a pretty good illustration of the amount of layering and programming required to replicate an orchestral sound.

I'm not saying that this style of production takes no effort or does not take time and practice to get a good result - but that the relative time taken is different to a considerable degree. I guess it is also a question of what you're used to and feel comfortable with - I can remember early in my career spending two days in the studio with a band who'd asked me to write a string arangement for one of their tracks, and being driven nuts (compared to working with orchestral musicians as I was used to) that no-one could read music and nothing was written down. I spent the first day just transcribing what they played so I had something to take home and work on. I can see how in reverse having a 'classical cat' who can't jam without having something written down for them would be equally frustrating from the band's point of view.

I guess this is a a similar argument to - 'which is easier to become competent on, the electric guitar or the violin'. I would argue that after 5 years of dedicated study, a violinist can still be painful to listen to but after 5 days it would be possible to get away with smoke on the water on the guitar. That doesn't mean I think Itzhak Perlman is an artist and Hendrix wasn't.

Programming a convincing rock track (and it wasn't rock I was referring to as 'sound design' of course - see description above) or a JW score involve similar processes of learning (listen to a lot of examples of the genre (both in terms of sound and how that style of composition works)  and tweak the composition, programming & mix until it sounds the same as your examples. But just as the guitar has a long finger friendly neck with frets [ and a lod of different amp, pedals & effects to change the tonal quality) and a violin has a short one without frets or electronic assistance - one takes a lot more work to be basically competent on than the other. As a listener I can enjoy the results of both without needing to know the player's CV - but as a composer there's a big difference in time & complexity between recreating the two.

My bottom line of course is that neither approach (classically based or sound design) is right or wrong - the test is whether the chosen genre is right for the project. A heavy rock score for Raiders of The Lost Ark (seen that one ? [;)] ) or a JW-type score for Resident Evil wouldn't have been good choices, no matter how skillful the programming.

Cheers,

David.

Ummm... so I devoted about 3 days of my life to read through this post from front to back...(sarcasm)...

@brad_11465 said:

Ummm... so I devoted about 3 days of my life to read through this post from front to back...(sarcasm)...

I can sympathise, I'm a slow reader myself ... [;)]

Still, you'll have learnt a valuable lesson - if you're not into narrow minded ranting and flame wars - never click on a thread with the word 'Zimmer' in the subject. [^o)]

D.

@David Gosnell said:

if you're not into narrow minded ranting and flame wars - never click on a thread with the word 'Zimmer' in the subject.

Good One David ! ! !

@David Gosnell said:

if you're not into narrow minded ranting and flame wars - never click on a thread with the word 'Zimmer' in the subject.

Good One David ! ! !

 LOL!!  I love it actually!!

Brad

Hi Guys,

  This thread has lasted for awhile.  Interesting topic!  I've done some scoring for tv, and time was a BIG consideration.  So many film scores seem to have minimal orchestration, and that probably boils down to time and $ (when does it not?.)  What bothers me is the heavy emphasis on "chase scene" cues.  Many are tedious and formulaic.  The slower, more lyrical passages seem to give the film score guys a better chance to shine, and here I disagree a bit with William.  I think Hans Zimmer is quite capable in the lyricism department.  (His live CD, "Wings of a Film" is a good example of this.  Check it out.)  True, one has to weed through a lot of uninspired stuff, but I still think he is somewhat deserving of his popularity (especially some his earlier scores.)

  That said, I think some scores really run with minimal thematic-orchestration approach.  Some that come to mind--Hans Z (Beyond Rangoon, Crimson Tide) John Barry (Dances with Wolves, The Scarlet Letter) James Newton Howard (The Sixth Sense) and two from the infamous Mel Gibson's films (Braveheart-James Horner and We Were Soldiers by Nick Glennie-Smith.)  I just listened to the We Were Soldiers CD last night, after many years.  Simple themes, but nicely orchestrated and quite moving.  (Does anyone know what Nick Glennie-Smith is up to?  I haven't seen his name on any films for some time.)

  Lately I've been listening a lot to American composers William Schuman, Roy Harris and Samuel Barber.  Wish these guys were around to score some films today!  

                                                   Tom

Have a listen to a 'chase' scene done by Herrmann, Williams, Barry, Jarre and the like, and compare... As far as deadlines go, have a look at a YouTube documentary on Williams doing the score for the original Star Wars - before the age of computer neat-scoring programs and libraries - talking something about 8 weeks(!) for that score(!!!). As for the current state of affairs in lyrical/dramatic scoring, the less said the better (I have neither the time, nor the vocabulary to accurately articulate my feelings; the adjectives 'vile', 'uninspired', 'ineffective', 'meretricious', 'supremely incompetent', only begin to describe them).

@Errikos said:

As for the current state of affairs in lyrical/dramatic scoring, the less said the better (I have neither the time, nor the vocabulary to accurately articulate my feelings; the adjectives 'vile', 'uninspired', 'ineffective', 'meretricious', 'supremely incompetent', only begin to describe them).

I tend to think this way also. 

never mind though - I shouldn't advise people about anything.

@Tom23 said:

  Lately I've been listening a lot to American composers William Schuman                                                  

Tom

What about Walter Schuman?  [<:o)]

Filmscore music is a lot like 3 minute popular music. It's a done genre. Why do you think everyone complains that pop music is nothing like it was in the 60's and even the 70's? Because the genre has been done to death. Same as film music. You gents don't really think there's going to be anymore genuinely original pop or film music do you? Just because a genre is created through historic knowledge and recreation of all that comes before, it definitely doesn't mean it's a necessary requisite that it's going to keep going and constantly be original and interesting.

Pop music and filmscore are almost always a rehash today. Why - because the fucking films are!!!!!  With Hans, I already said he's basically a pop/rocker that got into filmscoring. Don't blame Hans - blame the idiot directors today. These are the people that make the fucking films in the first place. These people have no inkling about film making a lot of the time. They bow to CGI and anything thats easy with regard to entertainment for the low IQ. I keep telling you - that's where the money is. This business about the last Batman film FFS - how many people really remember a film like that 20 minutes later? It's technically well-made crap for people living in an intellectual wilderness.

Good day!

Interesting and long discussion. I did not read every post in detail though...

I'm not a pro-composer, but I was wondering what you guys think about Zimmer's scores for Da Vinci Code and Angels & Demons?

I quite liked those two.

Oh sure...., I wonder why it never occurs to Williams to base a whole soundtrack on the basest arpeggiator passage (alla Da Vinci Code, the Dark Knight, etc.). Ah, I keep forgetting that he actually has technique to make the music move forward and doesn't need the computer to do it for him...

If all I can do is put my hands on the keyboard and press some white-note chords every few seconds and have no inkling of how to drive musical material forward, thank Heavens for the arpeggiator... It sure makes the Alberti bass look sophisticated but what can I do? I studied composition under a DJ instead of going to university. Instead of laying down a drum beat so I can compose a song over it, I lay strings (sorry, I tell the computer to lay down strings), and then improvise my puerile harmonic language over them, while the football team of orchestrators await my asinine three-track masterwork patiently in their cubicles...

Two million dollars please...

@Jef de Corte said:

Interesting and long discussion. I did not read every post in detail though...

I'm not a pro-composer, but I was wondering what you guys think about Zimmer's scores for Da Vinci Code and Angels & Demons?

I quite liked those two.

Listen to the new theme tune from Pillars of the Earth.  A new TV series written by a fucking hack and after 10 minutes of it I put myself up for being 'put to death' as more preferable than having another 1 hour and 50 minutes of shyte.

Here's the theme. Go figure.

"Pillars of Earth" soundtrack is from Trevor Morris, who worked under Zimmer.

I didn't see or hear it, but I like his Tudors soundtracks though...

@PaulR said:

Why did you find it necessary to share this with us Paul?... I'm surprised you lasted 10'; I pressed 'back-arrow' after 10". Another reminder of the logarithmic rate by which film music is being flushed down the public toilet... This track can be found at any given composter's personal website's demo-reel. I am increasingly confounded by how these people get hired in the first place.

@Jef de Corte said:

"Pillars of Earth" soundtrack is from Trevor Morris, who worked under Zimmer.

Well Gee......who would have guessed that?[:|]

Years ago it was bam/bambambambam/babababambambam/bam/babababam/babababam etcetc

Now it's chuggachuggachuggachugga ect with the strings. I don't blame Hans for that. He probably invented it. It's the other bastards that worry me. The minute I heard that at the front end of that TV serial, coupled with crap CGI and then noticed Ridley Scott and his brother (who can't direct shyte btw) had produced this, I knew that instead of putting it on prime time i.e. 9.00 pm - it should have been on children's hour. TV is dead in the water in this country today. There is no room for originality anymore because you have to pander to imbeciles.

never mind

You will probably find me silly then, but I like his work... :-)

In my opinion the Tudors score works perfectly with the series and they are a joy to listen to as a standalone.