@David Gosnell said:

if you're not into narrow minded ranting and flame wars - never click on a thread with the word 'Zimmer' in the subject.

Good One David ! ! !

 LOL!!  I love it actually!!

Brad

Hi Guys,

  This thread has lasted for awhile.  Interesting topic!  I've done some scoring for tv, and time was a BIG consideration.  So many film scores seem to have minimal orchestration, and that probably boils down to time and $ (when does it not?.)  What bothers me is the heavy emphasis on "chase scene" cues.  Many are tedious and formulaic.  The slower, more lyrical passages seem to give the film score guys a better chance to shine, and here I disagree a bit with William.  I think Hans Zimmer is quite capable in the lyricism department.  (His live CD, "Wings of a Film" is a good example of this.  Check it out.)  True, one has to weed through a lot of uninspired stuff, but I still think he is somewhat deserving of his popularity (especially some his earlier scores.)

  That said, I think some scores really run with minimal thematic-orchestration approach.  Some that come to mind--Hans Z (Beyond Rangoon, Crimson Tide) John Barry (Dances with Wolves, The Scarlet Letter) James Newton Howard (The Sixth Sense) and two from the infamous Mel Gibson's films (Braveheart-James Horner and We Were Soldiers by Nick Glennie-Smith.)  I just listened to the We Were Soldiers CD last night, after many years.  Simple themes, but nicely orchestrated and quite moving.  (Does anyone know what Nick Glennie-Smith is up to?  I haven't seen his name on any films for some time.)

  Lately I've been listening a lot to American composers William Schuman, Roy Harris and Samuel Barber.  Wish these guys were around to score some films today!  

                                                   Tom

Have a listen to a 'chase' scene done by Herrmann, Williams, Barry, Jarre and the like, and compare... As far as deadlines go, have a look at a YouTube documentary on Williams doing the score for the original Star Wars - before the age of computer neat-scoring programs and libraries - talking something about 8 weeks(!) for that score(!!!). As for the current state of affairs in lyrical/dramatic scoring, the less said the better (I have neither the time, nor the vocabulary to accurately articulate my feelings; the adjectives 'vile', 'uninspired', 'ineffective', 'meretricious', 'supremely incompetent', only begin to describe them).

@Errikos said:

As for the current state of affairs in lyrical/dramatic scoring, the less said the better (I have neither the time, nor the vocabulary to accurately articulate my feelings; the adjectives 'vile', 'uninspired', 'ineffective', 'meretricious', 'supremely incompetent', only begin to describe them).

I tend to think this way also. 

never mind though - I shouldn't advise people about anything.

@Tom23 said:

  Lately I've been listening a lot to American composers William Schuman                                                  

Tom

What about Walter Schuman?  [<:o)]

Filmscore music is a lot like 3 minute popular music. It's a done genre. Why do you think everyone complains that pop music is nothing like it was in the 60's and even the 70's? Because the genre has been done to death. Same as film music. You gents don't really think there's going to be anymore genuinely original pop or film music do you? Just because a genre is created through historic knowledge and recreation of all that comes before, it definitely doesn't mean it's a necessary requisite that it's going to keep going and constantly be original and interesting.

Pop music and filmscore are almost always a rehash today. Why - because the fucking films are!!!!!  With Hans, I already said he's basically a pop/rocker that got into filmscoring. Don't blame Hans - blame the idiot directors today. These are the people that make the fucking films in the first place. These people have no inkling about film making a lot of the time. They bow to CGI and anything thats easy with regard to entertainment for the low IQ. I keep telling you - that's where the money is. This business about the last Batman film FFS - how many people really remember a film like that 20 minutes later? It's technically well-made crap for people living in an intellectual wilderness.

Good day!

Interesting and long discussion. I did not read every post in detail though...

I'm not a pro-composer, but I was wondering what you guys think about Zimmer's scores for Da Vinci Code and Angels & Demons?

I quite liked those two.

Oh sure...., I wonder why it never occurs to Williams to base a whole soundtrack on the basest arpeggiator passage (alla Da Vinci Code, the Dark Knight, etc.). Ah, I keep forgetting that he actually has technique to make the music move forward and doesn't need the computer to do it for him...

If all I can do is put my hands on the keyboard and press some white-note chords every few seconds and have no inkling of how to drive musical material forward, thank Heavens for the arpeggiator... It sure makes the Alberti bass look sophisticated but what can I do? I studied composition under a DJ instead of going to university. Instead of laying down a drum beat so I can compose a song over it, I lay strings (sorry, I tell the computer to lay down strings), and then improvise my puerile harmonic language over them, while the football team of orchestrators await my asinine three-track masterwork patiently in their cubicles...

Two million dollars please...

@Jef de Corte said:

Interesting and long discussion. I did not read every post in detail though...

I'm not a pro-composer, but I was wondering what you guys think about Zimmer's scores for Da Vinci Code and Angels & Demons?

I quite liked those two.

Listen to the new theme tune from Pillars of the Earth.  A new TV series written by a fucking hack and after 10 minutes of it I put myself up for being 'put to death' as more preferable than having another 1 hour and 50 minutes of shyte.

Here's the theme. Go figure.

"Pillars of Earth" soundtrack is from Trevor Morris, who worked under Zimmer.

I didn't see or hear it, but I like his Tudors soundtracks though...

@PaulR said:

Why did you find it necessary to share this with us Paul?... I'm surprised you lasted 10'; I pressed 'back-arrow' after 10". Another reminder of the logarithmic rate by which film music is being flushed down the public toilet... This track can be found at any given composter's personal website's demo-reel. I am increasingly confounded by how these people get hired in the first place.

@Jef de Corte said:

"Pillars of Earth" soundtrack is from Trevor Morris, who worked under Zimmer.

Well Gee......who would have guessed that?[:|]

Years ago it was bam/bambambambam/babababambambam/bam/babababam/babababam etcetc

Now it's chuggachuggachuggachugga ect with the strings. I don't blame Hans for that. He probably invented it. It's the other bastards that worry me. The minute I heard that at the front end of that TV serial, coupled with crap CGI and then noticed Ridley Scott and his brother (who can't direct shyte btw) had produced this, I knew that instead of putting it on prime time i.e. 9.00 pm - it should have been on children's hour. TV is dead in the water in this country today. There is no room for originality anymore because you have to pander to imbeciles.

never mind

You will probably find me silly then, but I like his work... :-)

In my opinion the Tudors score works perfectly with the series and they are a joy to listen to as a standalone.

Well Errikos, if "vile, uninspired, ineffective, meritricious, supremely incompetent" "only begin to" articulate your feelings towards the current scoring state of affairs, I imagine you've got quite an invective grab bag for when you really get rolling.

Trevor, you must understand that this was not, unlike your particular brand of posting, a personal attack in anyway on you. Congratulations Trevor on EVEN getting the gig. I fully understand that a producer may well say to you - let's sound like this or that - because it's a tried and tested method.

But Trevor, you surely can't have such little self esteem and low confidence in your ability to write music that you feel it necessary to single out an insignificant musician on a forum, such as myself.

I play Baroque harpsichord music that I studied at The Royal College of Music back in 1970. Would you like to hear me play some? Really Trevor, do try to calm down.

 What blows me away.. and I think Trevor would agree... is that people forget that THIS IS A BUSINESS!!!!  You have to do what sells... and what the director wants!

You don't see stores selling the same clothes from back in the 1850's.  Why? because things evolve... things change.  Regardless of whether you like it or not. 

Face it... every movie does not require the "Star Wars" soundtrack. And just as is everything else in pop culture... stay with the times or fail to be relevant.  Take for example Pop radio as we know it. I don't hear Jimmy Hendricks being played on the top 40 anymore.  Even though he is one of the greatest guitar players of all time in the sense of pioneering. 

People have the right to be opinionated, but sometimes it is excessive as with this thread IMO.  Remember, this is a business. In business, the number one goal is to turn a profit.  In order to do so...  Get over it and get with the times!! :)

All said in love!

@Another User said:

A new TV series written by a fucking hack

Paul, you made it personal. Trevor has every right to rip you to shreds. You crossed a line.

Expect that these forums are visited by all the guys that you think you are better than. Now, what if you were in a room with all of us -- would your language change if we were sitting opposite you at a conference table? If not, then you deserve to get whatever is coming your way.

Trevor -- just tell Paul to fuck off and please stay around -- we need more working pros hanging out to make our tools better.

I fully agree with Jeremy.

The music of Trevor deserves far better than this...

@Tom23 said:

Well Errikos, if "vile, uninspired, ineffective, meritricious, supremely incompetent" "only begin to" articulate your feelings towards the current scoring state of affairs, I imagine you've got quite an invective grab bag for when you really get rolling.

Well Tom, you're right, it's "don't get me started" time! That is after having followed this forum for something like five years now (even if I joined late), having endured, enjoyed, or just perused indifferently over literally countless verbal duels fought here with such vehemence it made me smile or laugh out loud so many times with the great humour or bile that was thrown around.

One of the most enjoyable - and very well informed - posters here over the years has been PaulR; and no matter how heated the discussion became, he never backed down, he was even condescending and dismissive when after many efforts his well articulated points had failed to make an impression, or some people just insisted on disagreeing with him without actually making a cogent argument or being half as informed as he was on the subject.

SO  I  C A N N O T  B E L I E V E  I T that he's just squirming away from this guy's challenge, "I just play the harpsichord, etc..". That is just B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T Paul!! Why can't you repeat to this guy's face that HE IS a fucking hack after all!! Are you feeling sorry that you might hurt his feelings? He's a professional, and seasoned to rejection as even Goldsmith had to swallow among many others. What's this "I respect you get the gigs" or words to that effect shite? Are we wasting our time reading your posts when time permits?! Tell it like it is! You don't have to post music in comparison to make a judgement on someone's work, you could easily be an educated soundtrack lover. I wonder what William has to say on the matter...

As far as Trevor Morris is concerned, he has not addressed me, but I'm quite sure he would after this post, so I take the liberty to say a few things in advance:

You sir, are someone that is actually working on A-grade contracts so you have the advantage in that regard over every one of us here I would imagine. I could sit and listen to you for hours about matters concerning the industry. You could instruct me forever about contracts, deals, royalties, rates, studio gear, ways of dealing with pressure, with difficult directors/producers, endless tips on working in a proper sound stage with proper orchestras.... In short, there is no discernible limit to what I could learn from you except in one area...

I have no idea what kind of music you write other than the herein posted YouTube track (unless half of what Hans has written is really yours). If you ask me to have an opinion of you as a composer from that particular track alone, then please say no more... Don't challenge people on this forum musically. I don't know whether you are conscious of this, but you represent the worst of what film music has become; a boundless oceanic tirade of uninspired clichés, written mostly by people who know very-very little about the art of symphonic writing, and that have a two-shades emotional range and technical palette. Even the teams of orchestrators cannot save this "music" (sic), since even the best of them have to have a modicum of interesting or suggestive material to begin with (save for re-writing it themselves...). 

I respect the fact that you stand firm behind your product, but it is a misguided allegiance... Some people on this forum can actually teach you a lot about Music - including PaulR! - if you could just dismount from your high-I work in the industry-horse. Lady Gaga also makes more money than us and is known in the industry, that means ..., well you know what it means. As far as posting something here for your appreciation, there is no way I would let you take a track of mine and parade it around the Internet - I choose the time and the place for that, not anybody else. However, you must be well-off enough by now. The next trip to Greece you take for holidays, let me know, I will more than happily exchange solid and invaluable composition lessons for your insights and experience in the Real World of soundtrack music professionals.

In earnest,

E.

P.S. @brad_11465: You're right, it is a business and you have to do what the bosses want; however my contention is that we are bulldozed over by people who DON"T have a choice and just bend naturally over to the brass' orders. They physically COULD NOT write any better if asked/allowed. The meaningless drones, the endless arpeggiator patterns, the non-themes, etc. that is ALL they can do! They would fold like the sorriest poker hand if more was demanded of them. They should nightly thank their lucky stars for being in any demand whatsoever, inexplicable as it is.