Oh, and follow up quesiton: if I order a new Vienna key, will that give me another 120 free starts? That could hold me over until VSL sorts out my Vienna Key issues (assuming they agree to take it back and give me the licenses again)

@mikezaz_27157 said:

This is an interesitng thread because my vienna key just died on me tonight, and I cannot tell you how pissed I'll be if they make me rebuy licenses because their cheap piece of plastic decided to stop working. However, it seems like people think that you can just send the key to Vienna and they will eventually give you something that works, which is nice. It's still weird that this information isn't documented anywhere, and it's also scary that at any point you could be put out of commission for however long it takes to ship a key back and forth (a week? a month??) at any given point through no fault of your own, but I guess that's the modern world for you. 

1. You should always have a spare key in case of breakages. Lesson learned, I hope. [;)]
2. If the key is just broken, then I'm sure that support will sort out some new licences. Have you contacted them?

DG

About all this half price, full price, for free if you buy something with the same value, trust or no trust discussion.

Just imagine what would happen if it would be known that VSL is replacing licenses for free (or for the price of a new dongle) when this dongle is lost or stolen ..

Unfortunately there will be abuse, there might be people who would abuse it only for themselve (it is much more convinient to have the licenses at home and in the studio without carrying the dongle) and there might also be some people who would claim stolen products in order to make a musical interrested friend happy ...

I am not happy with dongle protection at all  but if you want to work with this great product that's the price you have to pay ...

@DG said:

1. You should always have a spare key in case of breakages. Lesson learned, I hope.
2. If the key is just broken, then I'm sure that support will sort out some new licences. Have you contacted them?

DG

I didn't mention it here, but I do have a spare (Steinberg) key. As far as I know, it makes no difference because you can't have a license on two keys. 

I have contacted support, no answer yet, but that's not surprising cause I emailed on Saturday when it died. 

@mikezaz_27157 said:

I didn't mention it here, but I do have a spare (Steinberg) key. As far as I know, it makes no difference because you can't have a license on two keys. 

No of course you can't, but it means that as soon as VSL gets the old one back they can email you the codes for a new licence. They may even send you a time limited demo to tide you over.

DG

You say "of course you can't" as if it's obvious, but many companies, such as Sibelius, will allow you to have a license on two computers. It's certainly not unheard of in this industry.

If VSL ends up doing what you say they will ,I'll be very happy and it will seem quite reasonable, although again I'd prefer it if all this were documented and standardized somewhere (and it would benefit them, at the very least so that speculative threads like these don't need to exist)

@mikezaz_27157 said:

You say "of course you can't" as if it's obvious, but many companies, such as Sibelius, will allow you to have a license on two computers. It's certainly not unheard of in this industry.

Sibelius doesn't use a dongle though.

DG

@DG said:

Sibelius doesn't use a dongle though.

DG

Right, but a transfer system (either via offline transfer numbers or some kind of online system in the user area) would allow for a more painelss and streamlined system for when something went wrong. I've had things go wrong with my Sibelius transfers many times, but they've never left me high and dry, and I've always gotten an answer back promptly. I'm not saying that won't happen with VSL (apparently All Saint's Day is a holiday in Austria, so that probably explains their silence), it's just, again, it would be nice to know what their policy is on these things.

On an unrelated note, of course many of us know that Eliscener [i]has[/i] been cracked, and it's only a matter of time until some major group turns their attentions to VSL and develops some kind of activation gen. Pretty much nothing is crack proof these days.

I do also sometimes wonder how companies like Sibelius or Notion deal with their "weaker" copy protection system. I tru to imagine what a nightmare it would be if I had to plug a dongle for each software I own: my laptop would look like huge USB hub.

I think that the Synchrosoft system has also long been cracked. Clearly all these system can be violated. However DON'T think this is the point! I think that the goal here would be to together try to propose something reasonable that might help solving at least part of the hassle of having to deal with the key while allowing the company to be safe and protected. My feeling, and I might be wrong, is that Vienna is not doing exactly everything that could be done to help the user easing the pain of the dongle.

Martin,

The dongle insurance price in England seems indeed good: does it also cover loss? Is it international (i.e. can you bring the key in a foreign country)? I wonder whether there is anything like this in Germany. However, still, the idea of having to get an insurance for a software sounds really a bit excessive to me, independently of the price.

Cesare

Alright, I got a response RE: my broken dongle:

" If the warranty period is already over, you can purchase replacement licenses for USD 30.00 per license + a handling fee of USD 10.00. As you've got 5 licenses on this key (Special Edition, Soprano Choir, Alto flute, Epic Horns and Special Edition Strings PLUS), the replacement licenses would cost USD 160, including the handling fee."

Hmmmm…… that's kind of a lot of money for software I've already bought.

@mikezaz_27157 said:

Alright, I got a response RE: my broken dongle:

" If the warranty period is already over, you can purchase replacement licenses for USD 30.00 per license + a handling fee of USD 10.00. As you've got 5 licenses on this key (Special Edition, Soprano Choir, Alto flute, Epic Horns and Special Edition Strings PLUS), the replacement licenses would cost USD 160, including the handling fee."

Hmmmm…… that's kind of a lot of money for software I've already bought.

You're kidding? They are charging per license for a broken dongle? I smell another wup-ass experience coming on. (go to the DUC, search "wup-ass" and then see what waves did within about 18 months.)

Stuff breaks, and the dongle is simply the container for the licenses. The license did not fail. VSL is going to have to evaluate this if they don't want a customer backlash, similar to what waves had to experience.

all I can say is, wow. this makes waves old policy look like a gift.

Dear VSL: please show us one other software company anywhere in the world that charges the customer PER LICENSE for a replacement license in the case of a failed dongle, and the dongle is physically returned to the developer. Are you guys just making this shit up as you go, or have you thought this through?

Jee whiz. 😞

@mikezaz_27157 said:

Alright, I got a response RE: my broken dongle:

" If the warranty period is already over, you can purchase replacement licenses for USD 30.00 per license + a handling fee of USD 10.00. As you've got 5 licenses on this key (Special Edition, Soprano Choir, Alto flute, Epic Horns and Special Edition Strings PLUS), the replacement licenses would cost USD 160, including the handling fee."

Hmmmm…… that's kind of a lot of money for software I've already bought

 That's why it's utterly pointless Dietz claiming that they're not money-grabbing. I have to repeat that a license is just permission to use something - which can't be lost, stolen, or expire. I can kind of understand Vienna's thinking (although it's still flawed) in wanting more money for licenses where you'ce let the dongle fall into someone else's hands, but this is just downright wrong. You've paid for permission to use the samples, and there is absolutely nothing in their blurb about that permission ever expiring. The dongle may die, but that isn't what you paid for. Vienna are hoping to create a belief that the dongle and license are one and the same thing, which is simply not true. In cases like this, where you still actually have the dongle, and it can be verified that the licenses were on it, they have absolutely no grounds to charge you again. I'd love to hear them explain what the charge is for. A handling fee I can understand, but that should be it.

http://www.ilok.com/ilok-rma.html

If your iLok is broken

Before you report your iLok as broken, please try to make sure that it is actually broken. If any of the following are true, then it is likely that your iLok is broken and needs to be replaced:

• The USB connector is loose, detached, or the case is visibly cracked.
• The light on the iLok is off when plugged into a known working USB port. Note that some non-powered USB hubs can be problematic. If you are using a hub, make sure it is powered.
• The light on the iLok is on, but iLok.com indicates that the iLok is not inserted when you try to view and refresh. Make sure you are using the very latest software by updating your software here.

If you have determined that your iLok is broken, please take note of the following points.

Warranty:

• The iLok is warranted to be free of defects for a period of one year.
• If your iLok is under warranty, PACE will replace your recovered licenses free of charge.
• If your iLok is physically damaged, any warranty is void.

How replacement works:

• You must provide us with a valid credit card to start the RMA License Recovery process. Your card may or may not be charged depending on the warranty status of your iLok. If charged, the cost for RMA License Recovery will be $39.95.
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• You must send your iLok to us as part of the RMA License Recovery process. If we do not receive your iLok, we cannot provide you with permanent replacement licenses.
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• Replacement licenses will be deposited in your iLok.com account. You must download them to the iLok of your choice.

@Pingu said:

I'd love to hear them explain what the charge is for. A handling fee I can understand, but that should be it.

That's easy.

We have to pay these license fees to Steinberg/Syncrosoft for all needed additional licenses.

By the way, if the dongle dies because of a malefunction of the dongle itself (not damaged by the user) within the product guarantee period, all needed new licenses are of course replaced for free.

best

Herb

@Pingu said:

I'd love to hear them explain what the charge is for. A handling fee I can understand, but that should be it.

That's easy.

We have to pay these license fees to Steinberg/Syncrosoft for all needed additional licenses.

By the way, if the dongle dies because of a malefunction of the dongle itself (not damaged by the user) within the product guarantee period, all needed new licenses are of course replaced for free.

best

Herb

Hi Herb,

I certainly wouldn't say you guys are money grubbing or whatever, very far from it. I've loved your software for the three or so years I've used it (except of course for the nasty dongle problems that all Mac and Logic users seem to experience from time to time, but that's once again the fault of the dongle, and perhaps Apple, not of your company). Even before I owned the software I loved it - throughout high school I used to check up on the VSL page every week or so to be amazed by the demos you guys were putting up. It was a serious thrill to get enough extra scholarship money from my college to finally be able to afford the Special Edition back in 2007. 

However, as a student, this arrangement simply seems to be pricing me out of VSL. I had ideas of slowly acquiring all of your various instruments by reinvesting money I had earned through film scoring, which I've already started to do last year (hence why I have 5 licenses instead of the 1).

I suppose knowing what I know now, I would never keep more than 2 or so licenses on a single dongle, although this certainly seems daunting simply from a USB perspective (I'm sure pro users have one or more USB hubs devoted entirely to Vienna dongles). But also, I bought the software with the belief that I could use it with relative confidence for decades, maybe. Afterall, I'm still using the basic license I bought for software like Sibelius and Kontakt many many years ago (admittedly with upgrade fees every few years, but of course those fees are for new functionality). Hopefully you can see why this event has shaken my confidence in being a VSL consumer: until I'm at a point in my life where I can simply throw money at problems to fix them, it doesn't seem as unambiguously worth it as it did before.

I've been very impressed by your company's willingness to talk over these issues, and hope that it will continue.

Thanks,

Michael 

Wow! 30 dollar per license for a broken dongle is really a new information! I didn't even know that the dongle had a warranty!!! Essentially if the dongle is defective and it breaks after the warranty period it the user fault that licenses are stored on such a system?

Herb, what would happen if the damage to the dongle was caused by the user? Or by the user's computer?

That's really a bit sad,

Cesare

The latest from VSL support, for the benefit of this thread:

"I understand your concern. It might help to think of your Vienna Instruments products just like a real instrument. You have to restring every guitar every once in a while, to keep it in good tune. Our ViennaKeys have a warranty of two years, so you might want to consider exchanging your key every two years, to prevent it from failing. If the key breaks by itself within these two years, you'll get a new key and new licenses for free!
Another option would be to insure you products at a local insurance company.

Regarding your request, I'm afraid that can't give you a positive answer to exactly your proposition, sorry to say. But here's what I can do:
I can offer you the replacement licenses for only $10 per license (+ $10 handling fee) instead of the earlier mentioned $30 per license, if you purchase new Single Instrument Downloads with the residue of $100 (about EUR 72) that you would save by the lower price on the replacement licenses. You can even combine this with our current lottery offer, so maybe you're lucky and get an additional Single Instrument Download for free!

So here's again how this would happen: you purchase additional Single Instrument Downloads worth at least EUR 72 in our web shop, and you can then purchase the replacement licenses for your broken key for $60 (incl. handling fee and shipping, if you haven't purchased a replacement key yet - a replacement key ($36) is not included here).

I hope that you find this offer interesting."

I do find it interesting, and I'll have to think it through. By the way, I reccomend once this thread runs it's course, we make another that details everything we've found about vienna key loss and failure.

Last year I moved and lost my eLicense dongle for the SE. I emailed VSL and they told me there was no way to reactivate my license with a new dongle, but they would sell me a new license for $500! There was no way I was going to pay an additional $500 for a thousand dollar library. I tore my entire house apart and luckily after a week managed to find my dongle. But this experience really caused me to hesitate buying any additional VSL products.

I was seriously considering buying the Waves Silver bundle because of their ‘phone home' licensing option. But I ended up buying the Vienna Suite once they offered the student discount. And I've gone on to purchase the SE+.

I'd really love to be able to take my laptop with my VSL libraries to school with me every day as my teachers are all really impressed with them and they are such a joy to work with, but my dongle is now worth more then my Mac Book Pro! So now I just make an mp3 of my pieces to give to my teachers and leave my notebook at home.

I really wish VSL would offer a ‘phone home' option to renew your licenses every 60 days or so. It's so easy to misplace or lose a tiny USB dongle especially if you are traveling from site to site or gigging with your notebook.

Michael

@mikezaz_27157 said:

I understand your concern. It might help to think of your Vienna Instruments products just like a real instrument. You have to restring every guitar every once in a while, to keep it in good tune. Our ViennaKeys have a warranty of two years, so you might want to consider exchanging your key every two years, to prevent it from failing

which brings us back to the fact that the license is clearly now a piece of hardware - Vienna even want you to think of it that way - so I'm entitled to sell it.

Mikezaz,

I was actually thinking of building a small users-website listing all the information about the Vienna key. I am currently in the process of buying the domain. Apart from the time required I wonder whether it would be useful. I would really have liked to be given this information when I was deciding on my purchase thus maybe other people could benefit from our experiences. But maybe it is just a waste of time, what do you think?

Cesare