@clruwe said:

I agree, but if it's not VSL or EWQL then what? I've done a lot of research and I cannot find any non-dongle alternatives... We just need to convince VSL to change.

To change to what?

DG

I am afraid we cannot convince Vienna to change policy, they would have done already otherwise. But we have the right to ask for clear policies:

- what is a user supposed to pay in case of damaged/broken key

- what is a user supposed to pay in case of stolen/lost key

- that it is impossible to de-activate keys

- that it is not possible to backup licenses

All this should be told clearly to costumers BEFORE purchase and BEFORE any problem occurrs.

Maybe we can ask to the European Consumer Centers. Also, we can try to spread the info: these are information that the costumer has the right to know.

@clruwe said:

I agree, but if it's not VSL or EWQL then what? I've done a lot of research and I cannot find any non-dongle alternatives... We just need to convince VSL to change.

To change to what?

DG

@cesare.magri said:

I am afraid we cannot convince Vienna to change policy, they would have done already otherwise. But we have the right to ask for clear policies:

- what is a user supposed to pay in case of damaged/broken key

- what is a user supposed to pay in case of stolen/lost key

- that it is impossible to de-activate keys

- that it is not possible to backup licenses

All this should be told clearly to costumers BEFORE purchase and BEFORE any problem occurrs.

Maybe we can ask to the European Consumer Centers. Also, we can try to spread the info: these are information that the costumer has the right to know.

A license can be stored only on one dongle. You can move licenses between different dongles but each license can stay only on one dongle at the time. Thus no backup is possible.

@clruwe said:

So how do use slave computers then?

Plug the dongle into the slave computer.

DG

@DG said:

Ah, but selling them on eBay is a different matter. They don't allow that, and there is a charge for the licence transfer (just as there is with iLok).

Ah, I see. In that case we're back where we started. If the dongle and license are the same thing, then I have every right to sell my license, at least in the UK, without any involvement from Vienna, and certainly without any further payment, and they have no business shutting down ebay sales.

@DG said:

Ah, but selling them on eBay is a different matter. They don't allow that, and there is a charge for the licence transfer (just as there is with iLok).

Ah, I see. In that case we're back where we started. If the dongle and license are the same thing, then I have every right to sell my license, at least in the UK, without any involvement from Vienna, and certainly without any further payment, and they have no business shutting down ebay sales.

Why do you think you are "entitled" to sell a licence in the first place? Have you tried to sell your driving licence? Good luck with that. [:D]

DG

Ok, DG please, stop making absurd comparisons. The VSL license is neither a driving license nor a fridge. We know exactly what we mean with it and so do you DG. Why don't you instead tell us how much it costs Vienna to generate licenses, this would be a useful information to think about feasibility of systems such as the Waves TLC (does anyone know how much it costs?). You seem to be very well informed and somehow half way between a user and a Vienna emplyee.

Pingu and Delavagus, why don't we start acting concretely to inform people? Originally I had thought of the www.viennausers.com website. But that takes way too much time to create and would take even longer to rank decently on google. I keep the domain just in case this thread gets deleted in which case I'd move it there.

Why don't we instead make a clear compact list of the things that costumers are not informed about and post it as reviews to VSL in let's say 4 websites each? A review on Amazon or any of the main resellers reaches thousands of people, and I always read them before buying a product. We would then reach many more people and be much more effective without wasting too much time. We are actual costumers and we write about true stuff and reviews really help costumers to decide. I really wished I were informed at the time I purchased Vienna, I'm not a pro and didn't want to get stuck into this absurd dongle problems.

@clruwe said:

I agree, but if it's not VSL or EWQL then what? I've done a lot of research and I cannot find any non-dongle alternatives... We just need to convince VSL to change.

There are a few Kontakt libraries out there that I think seem decent that don't use dongles (no personal experience), but I don't think it's fair to bring competitors' products up on this forum.  I do, however, still believe that VSL's libraries sound better and you can't really beat VI Pro as a sample player (though Kontakt is a close second - obviously this is my opinion), but the monetary risk is just too great for me.

They did reply to my email asking about selling my licenses and they do let you. 

• The fees will cost me about US $200 though - 10% of retail or US $70 (50 Euro?) minimum per license - plus the loss on retail pricing I would have to take to make my offer more attractive than buying direct / retail.  I am estimating an overall ~30% loss.
• The licenses must be sent to the "new owner" already on a key
• Full licenses cannot be split into Standard / Extended.  Lastly, you cannot offer your licenses / DVDs / etc on auction sites (such as eBay) - they must be sold privately.

I must say, I was rather surpised they let sell you licenses, but the fees are steep.

On the flip side, I do have a few EWQL licenses as well (these absolutely cannot be transferred).  I don't use them because the PLAY engine is so weak and v 3.x is a nasty joke of a bugfest that is hit or miss as to which machine it will work on.  What a miserable mistake it was to buy EWQL "stuff".

@Another User said:

Why don't you instead tell us how much it costs Vienna to generate licenses, this would be a useful information to think about feasibility of systems such as the Waves TLC (does anyone know how much it costs?). You seem to be very well informed and somehow half way between a user and a Vienna employee.

.

How would I know how much it costs to generate licences? Of course I'm well informed. I'm a professional, and do my research before buying any equipment or software. That doesn't make me an employee; just someone with a bit of experience and intelligence. I do spend a lot of time on this forum helping people, unlike some others who seem to join this forum just to complain. However, I do think it's a bit selfish for some new members of the forum (and I'm not talking about you) to expect other members of the forum to rise up and support them, when they've given nothing to the community.

However I certainly wouldn't want VSL to go down the same route as the Waves Extortion Plan. Nether would I want them to go down the route of East West, where you can't sell any of their products, even though they use an iLok.

DG

That's right, I am not a professional and I did not buy a professional product: I bought SE wich was explicitely aimed at non professionals

"It is the ideal, resource-saving companion for orchestral arrangements on the laptop, or for newcomers to the world of Vienna Instruments, offering a useful cross-section of Vienna Symphonic Library’s over one million samples."

I thus do not want to have to deal with the hassle of a pro. I want a product that I can use when I travel (as suggested by the SE description, you should use it on a laptop!), not that I have to keep locked at home. I really don't know where I could have read about the key problems, since it was not written anywhere (OK, now they are, since this thread was created).

Anyone is welcome to join this discussion, independently to how much he/she "contributed" on this forum. We are not building an open-source project, here we are discussing about the money we earned.

One more thing: if I loose my driving license I go to the police station certify the loss and get a new one, I'm not asked to redo the test.

@DG said:

It's hardly absurd. A licence is a licence, but for some reason you seem to think that you are entitled to sell a VSL licence, whereas you would never think of selling a driving licence. Or a TV licence for that matter

That's exactly my point. Not only would you not think of selling your driving or tv license, but you literally can't, since they are completely intangible. The piece of plastic that represents premission for me to drive is only a representation. If I lose it the DLV will supply another copy - they will charge an admin fee, but they don't tell me that my permission to drive is gone, and claim that I have to start all over again.

According to VSL the dongle is not just a representation of your license, but actually is the license. It's no longer an intangible thing, represented by an object, but actually is the object. And, as I said before, I'm entitled to sell any physical item that I own. So they've put themselves on very dodgy ground.

@cesare.magri said:

 

One more thing: if I loose my driving license I go to the police station certify the loss and get a new one, I'm not asked to redo the test.

And the new licence is free? It certainly isn't in the UK.

DG

@DG said:

It's hardly absurd. A licence is a licence, but for some reason you seem to think that you are entitled to sell a VSL licence, whereas you would never think of selling a driving licence. Or a TV licence for that matter

That's exactly my point. Not only would you not think of selling your driving or tv license, but you literally can't, since they are completely intangible. The piece of plastic that represents premission for me to drive is only a representation. If I lose it the DLV will supply another copy - they will charge an admin fee, but they don't tell me that my permission to drive is gone, and claim that I have to start all over again.

According to VSL the dongle is not just a representation of your license, but actually is the license. It's no longer an intangible thing, represented by an object, but actually is the object. And, as I said before, I'm entitled to sell any physical item that I own. So they've put themselves on very dodgy ground.

 And this is why I think that it is fair that VSL allows you to sell your licence, even though other companies, that also use dongles for their software, may not. However, I don't think that VSL should be out of pocket, if Steinberg charges an admin fee.

Now as to how much the fee should be; I'm certainly more in your camp on that one. However, I have no idea how much Steiny charges, or how much admin is caused on the VSL side, so I can't really speculate as to whether or not it is fair.

I also think that VSL should have some special sort of insurance that they can recommend to their users, for those people who for some reason are unable to sort it out themselves. That would help, I think.

DG

Anyway, comparing the VSL license to anything else is simply pure speculation. Let's not get lost on fruitless things, and let's instead focus on concrete things: the only thing that matters is the fact that Vienna imposes to costumers strict limitations without informing them at the time of buying. The only thing that matters now is informing other people before they purchase something they were not given enough information about.

Thus, Pingu and Delavagus, what do you think of the review proposal? Reviews were made for this, to help possible buyers make infomed decisions. We could chose the 12 main resellers (4 for each of us), prepare a compact but clear description of the problems and post it. It will take us a few minutes each. Doing it together will make it look as a more reliable complain than just one "angry" reviewer writing around. I think it can really make the difference saving people from making an uninformed choice on how to spend one or two months wages.

@DG said:

However, I don't think that VSL should be out of pocket, if Steinberg charges an admin fee.

No I wouldn't want to see VSL out of pocket either. For all that I think their business practise is unethical (and more because they simply haven't thought it through, rather than because they set out to be unethical) I still want to see them succeed, since their products are great. On the other hand, I don't think Steinberg should have any say here either, and there should be no transfer fee at all.

If my permission to use the samples is intangible, and lives somewhere in the ether, then I would fully understand, since I would need Steinberg / VSL to transfer records of who they regard as having that permission. But when it becomes a thing there is no longer any need. There are a finite number of dongles out there, they can only be used in one PC at a time, and it's really none of their business who has them. The policy on theft is a confirmation of this. If my dongle is stolen then the letter of the law (although I realise Vienna have been persuaded to act slightly more reasonably in some cases) is that my license is simply gone. The only logic I can think that Vienna are applying is that there is now a new user, and giving me replacement licenses would mean there are more users out there than there are people who've payed up. So, in effect, they've transferred my license to the thief, merely by dint of him having my dongle. So I'm darned if I can't do the same without having to tell them.

I am writing a short piece for Wikipedia (for the criticism section in the VSL wkipedia page). I'll post it here first for comments and suggestions: it should be well written, correct and fair.

Cesare