The fact that Vienna's license agreement is a) unfair but even worse b) lacking essential information concerning the licensing system is, unfortunately, a very old story. Furthermore it is honestly a mess. Just consider that until approx one year ago, the sentence "Lost or stolen Licenses cannot be replaced free of charge by Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH" did not exist at all. They have added it after I asked them to point out where it was stated that I had to pay again for the licenses after loosing the key (I still have the email :-). Before (everyone who bought an older version of the products can check the printed agreement) there was not mention to this problem at all. The only solution, for me, is not to buy anything until they improve the licensing system.

DG: how much does Steinberg charge for each license?

Btw why has this thread been moved to "General and Hardware Discussion"? what kind of section is that? "General and fish and chips"?

Wow, this is all pretty scary.  I don't think I want to buy any more dongle protected software or libraries (from any company, not just VSL).  I wonder if VSL will let me sell my current licenses.  I'm sure my handful of licenses don't amount to much in their eyes, but it took me quite a while to save up for them.  It would be nice to be able to recoup some of that.

I'm so paranoid after reading all this.  I could lose almost 2 months' salary in the blink of an eye due to the loss of that little piece of plastic.  I'm not positive, but I don't think my insurance company would cover non-physical items.  I'm still confused as to whether or not the licenses attached to the key are considered physical or not.  If not, then it would seem that they could be replaced for a minimal processing fee (to cover steiney's fee).  If so, then it seems that you could sell your license(s) like any other physical item.

Great arguments, btw, I am impressed that you kept everything so civil as it started to look like it was getting heated.

@Another User said:

I'm not positive, but I don't think my insurance company would cover non-physical items.

I recently changed my insurance, and checked. Not only were they prepared to cover the licenses, but they did it within my standard cover, so there was no impact on the premiums. On the other hand my dongles never leave the house - I can imagine it's much harder to get cover for hauling them around.

I would be fun and useful to ask some expert about these issues, and also about the complete lack of information surrounding the Vienna Key. Who could we ask, is there any association or specialized website?

@Pingu said:

VSL will, of course, say no, you may not sell your licenses.

Oh no they won't.  [:P]

Just contact support and ask them.

DG

@clruwe said:

I agree, but if it's not VSL or EWQL then what? I've done a lot of research and I cannot find any non-dongle alternatives... We just need to convince VSL to change.

To change to what?

DG

I am afraid we cannot convince Vienna to change policy, they would have done already otherwise. But we have the right to ask for clear policies:

- what is a user supposed to pay in case of damaged/broken key

- what is a user supposed to pay in case of stolen/lost key

- that it is impossible to de-activate keys

- that it is not possible to backup licenses

All this should be told clearly to costumers BEFORE purchase and BEFORE any problem occurrs.

Maybe we can ask to the European Consumer Centers. Also, we can try to spread the info: these are information that the costumer has the right to know.

@clruwe said:

I agree, but if it's not VSL or EWQL then what? I've done a lot of research and I cannot find any non-dongle alternatives... We just need to convince VSL to change.

To change to what?

DG

@cesare.magri said:

I am afraid we cannot convince Vienna to change policy, they would have done already otherwise. But we have the right to ask for clear policies:

- what is a user supposed to pay in case of damaged/broken key

- what is a user supposed to pay in case of stolen/lost key

- that it is impossible to de-activate keys

- that it is not possible to backup licenses

All this should be told clearly to costumers BEFORE purchase and BEFORE any problem occurrs.

Maybe we can ask to the European Consumer Centers. Also, we can try to spread the info: these are information that the costumer has the right to know.

A license can be stored only on one dongle. You can move licenses between different dongles but each license can stay only on one dongle at the time. Thus no backup is possible.

@clruwe said:

So how do use slave computers then?

Plug the dongle into the slave computer.

DG

@DG said:

Ah, but selling them on eBay is a different matter. They don't allow that, and there is a charge for the licence transfer (just as there is with iLok).

Ah, I see. In that case we're back where we started. If the dongle and license are the same thing, then I have every right to sell my license, at least in the UK, without any involvement from Vienna, and certainly without any further payment, and they have no business shutting down ebay sales.

@DG said:

Ah, but selling them on eBay is a different matter. They don't allow that, and there is a charge for the licence transfer (just as there is with iLok).

Ah, I see. In that case we're back where we started. If the dongle and license are the same thing, then I have every right to sell my license, at least in the UK, without any involvement from Vienna, and certainly without any further payment, and they have no business shutting down ebay sales.

Why do you think you are "entitled" to sell a licence in the first place? Have you tried to sell your driving licence? Good luck with that. [:D]

DG

Ok, DG please, stop making absurd comparisons. The VSL license is neither a driving license nor a fridge. We know exactly what we mean with it and so do you DG. Why don't you instead tell us how much it costs Vienna to generate licenses, this would be a useful information to think about feasibility of systems such as the Waves TLC (does anyone know how much it costs?). You seem to be very well informed and somehow half way between a user and a Vienna emplyee.

Pingu and Delavagus, why don't we start acting concretely to inform people? Originally I had thought of the www.viennausers.com website. But that takes way too much time to create and would take even longer to rank decently on google. I keep the domain just in case this thread gets deleted in which case I'd move it there.

Why don't we instead make a clear compact list of the things that costumers are not informed about and post it as reviews to VSL in let's say 4 websites each? A review on Amazon or any of the main resellers reaches thousands of people, and I always read them before buying a product. We would then reach many more people and be much more effective without wasting too much time. We are actual costumers and we write about true stuff and reviews really help costumers to decide. I really wished I were informed at the time I purchased Vienna, I'm not a pro and didn't want to get stuck into this absurd dongle problems.