@jasensmith said:

 until I'm done with the hot chick (windows fogged up).   

Good one, "windows fogged up" ... PC ...

But seriously, it seems that there is some confusion here:

• I use a Mac
• I use Logic Pro
• I don't use VE
• I use VI like any other plugin (Omnisphere, Play, Zebra, etc)

We seemed to establish already that ...

• authorization on VI and VE is different
• authorization on a Mac and PC is different.

So if you are on a PC or using mainly VE then you don't have to deal with the long authorization process. Again this is not a call for help in trouble shooting. This post was intended to tell VSL that 5 minutes for a plugin authentication every time you start/restart your machine is outrages and gather more support from other Mac/Logic/VI users that are also outraged to show VSL this is unacceptable.

Obviously most VSL users are on a PC or are on a Mac and don't care much about that, so my mission has failed.

PS:

Using Logic in 64bit and having 16GB of RAM seems plenty. But here is the catch where you have to restart from time to time during the day. For example if you are using Omnisphere, Trilian or Play plugins in a Project and browse through lots of sounds (loading one preset after another while overwriting the previous one), then you will see that your 16GB of RAM gets eaten up pretty fast and you reach the 0 bytes physical RAM situation moving into swap space territory. Every time you overwrite a previous preset, OSX doesn't clean out that memory space but keeps some as inactive memory. So once your samples get paged out into swap space memory addressing, performance starts to degrade and it is time for tabula rasa and reboot the machine. 

Although 32bit apps imposed the infamous 4GB memory limitation, but at least it also kept you from entering the swap space. This is a little detail that was hidden in the fine print when they sold us the holy land of 64bit apps.

Again this is  on a Mac and I don't have any idea if you are dealing with the same RAM fragmentation and swap space issues on a PC.

@Paul said:

Hello Edgar,

of course we are looking at solutions to improve the license and content scanning process, but these processes have to be 100% safe, simply because we do not want to have 1000s of "unloyal customers", accidentally.

I´m very sorry that you are so upset with our products. I have not seen 1 positive sentence in any of your (so far) 36 comments (and I hope I have just overlooked it).

Paul,

thanks for your response, I really appreciate it. 

I'm sorry to give you the impression that I'm not positive enough. I'm a member on the forum since 2003, we bought the VSL Library (The Cube) when it first came out for the Gigastudio, we later bought the upgrade for the EXS24 version and then bought the Cube again for the VI. I think it is an amazing product and that is one of the reasons I use it and love it for so long. I consider the contribution of VSL a milestone in Sample history that really pushed the industry forward on so many levels, I really mean that. But with every greatness in technology there are compromises forced by the current limitations of technology. If technology moves forward so does the products that profits from them, simple evolution, common fact.

Because I like the VSL product so much, I want it to be even better, that's why I'm so passionate about it. Sorry if it comes across as "negative bitching around". I get that on other forums too, but that is who I am. In my job people expect me to deliver the best and I cannot afford to settle for less than giving the best. What surprises me and also saddens in some way is the mentality of so many users who are just "ok with it", "not a big deal", "it is good enough". 

Of course the users have to make sure that the company can survive financially by buying their product and accept their means of protecting it. But the users have also a big role in pushing the company to deliver excellence and pointing out areas that needs improvement in order to survive. If competitor B and C leapfrogs the company that I bought into and gets out of business, that is also not in the customers interest.

I understand and respect that VSL has a priority of improvements that they decide in what areas a product gets evolved. Too bad the authentication process seems to be at the bottom of that list. Too many users seem to be OK with the current situation and consider that "a small price to pay for the continuing existence of VSL" (quote from DG). I myself consider it a huge workflow killer but obviously I'm in the minority.

At least I'm happy that the other gripe I have with VI, the OSX interface integration gets fixed in the VI PRO version. If you still need a beta tester that tells you his honest opinion without holding back, let me know 😊

In the meantime I' stop complaining about the authentication process and sit back and patiently wait until VSL reconsider their position, either due to more user complaints or pressure form competing companies that manage to protect their product without putting the burden on their customers.

 Edgar, I know that we don't see eye to eye on this issue, but some of your problems are actually caused by the fact that you are using OSX (the need to re-boot, for example). I don't really think that it's fair to try to hold VSL responsible for the inflexibility of Apple's OS.

However, I (and I'm sure VSL) would be interested to hear about a better copy protection system, if there is one. Do you have any thoughts? I'm assuming that it is not cost effective for VSL to come up with their own. To my knowledge there are 3 main sorts of copy protection:

1. Challenge/response. This one seems to be cracked almost before it has been released.
2. Dongle. I only really know anything about Syncrosoft and iLok. I do know that most iLok products are cracked very quickly, and Syncrosoft ones take a lot longer. I also know that if VSL was using iLok, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, because there are no 64bit drivers for OSX yet for iLok. What other dongles are there?
3. Water marking. I know nothing about this, but imagine that it might be a bit of a nightmare for replication. I also believe that even if it works, it is less secure, because it doesn't stop the product being used; it only allows the developer to see which user has allowed their product to be copied. They have to find out to do something about it. ;>)

Please feel free to post back any thoughts about other methods, because as Paul says that VSL is always listening, it might be that you have heard of a better solution that doesn't penalise the users who are actually able to work very efficiently with the current system.

DG

DG,

Here we go again. As I have communicated to you in a different thread, please try to avoid giving us your opinions on problems which you so happily don't have because you are using your beloved PC setup. We don't want or need to hear how you think everything is working well for you on a different platform to the one that's being discussed (and I know it affects PCs too but you don't seem to mind at all).

You stated that the wait time is not an issue for you. So why come to the defense of VSL again? They don't need you to do this, and you are not qualified to do this so please just leave it to the VSL team to respond to issues brought up by users of their software.

It sounds like you don't want VSL software to improve because you keep insisting that it's all working perfectly as it is (for you). So why comment? These are rhetorical questions by the way.

It's just silly games to ask Edgar to come up with a better protection mechanism. It's not his job, he's not being paid for it and he isn't qualified to do this. He is, however, justified in asking for something to be done about this problem. And yes, it is a problem and I am also amazed that so many people just put up with it without saying anything.

I will reiterate:

DG, by all means reply to a thread if you have a solution or can be helpful in some way, but stop defending the status quo of VSL software and try to hold back from adding your opinion to countless threads on this forum. I'm surprised you even get any time to use VSL.

Tom

@DG said:

I don't really think that it's fair to try to hold VSL responsible for the inflexibility of Apple's OS.

This response is a little tricky because I have to enter the slippery slop of PC vs Mac. Although I used PCs for many years with Gigastudio, I prefer the Mac. The Mac community is used to get treated as a second class citizen by developers for decades although things have changed a bit lately. Developers just plain ignored the Mac and just released Windows versions or the Mac versions was released much later after it was ported over (Skype, Netflix, Quicken, etc).

I understand that the developers have it not easy to deal with Apple and their policies and they have my sympathy, But having said, I also think that the developer should not use that as an excuse to release a less than optimal product. The user is interested in the promise of the product and this is the bases for his decision to spend his money on that. If it is not possible to deliver a true cross platform product then the developer should advertise it: "available for Windows and also for Mac in a stripped down less functional version". I didn't see a footnote at VSL that says "authentication on a Mac may take up to 5 times longer than on a PC" or "beware that the Mac version of the VI plugin has to violate basic OSX user interface guidelines in order to make it somehow functional". No, of course you don't see that. 

This is what I'm talking about with "second class citizens". We are used to pick up the crumbs from the code floor and it is expected to be ok with it. And yes, you might say, why not coming over your greener side of the grass. But no thanks, I made my computer platform decision based on my personal experience the same way millions of users made their choice to use PC based on their personal experience. That is not the issue. I'm aware of the restrictions I might have based my decision to use Macs. 

So this has nothing to do with " holding VSL responsible for the inflexibility of Apple's OS".  The problem is when VSL releases a Mac versions and they are not upfront with possible limitations or restrictions  compared to the Windows version. I don't want to bring that up all the time but how come that Spectrasonics, NI, FXpander seemed to mange the "inflexibility". Could it be that at the end it is the "inflexibility" of VSL's product?

Second topic "Copy Protection"

I don't know where to start. I don't even pretend to have an answer, just a few points I thought to be valid.

• There is no such thing as 100% copy protection
• Stop chasing ghosts
• History shows that the most locked down software disappear sooner or later
• Kids who use a pirated Photoshop copy wouldn't by it in the first place if it was completely locked because they don't have the money in the first place. (The billions of  $$$  damage of potential sales is questionable)
• At the end, copy protection is always a compromise between the transparency for the user and the peace of mind for the creator
• It seems that other software companies have managed to survive even they don't use the draconian protection practice that VLS imposes on their customers.

Conclusion:

I noticed quite often that companies tend to be self centered because that they can't imagine that users use other products/plugins besides their own. But this is not the reality. So just using VSL with that long authentication process seems ok for many users, but would it still be ok if every plugin/software on their computer uses the same protection scheme. If a user would spend 7 hour out of their 8 hour work day sitting around and waiting for authentication approval over and over again would it still be ok and tolerable?

@inwinterhesleeps said:

I will reiterate:

DG, by all means reply to a thread if you have a solution or can be helpful in some way, but stop defending the status quo of VSL software and try to hold back from adding your opinion to countless threads on this forum. I'm surprised you even get any time to use VSL.

Tom

It's not up to you when and where I post. It's not up to you whether or not I defend (to use your word) VSL, or any other company. In any case I wasn't talking to you, so if you don't like what I post, then don't read it. [|-)]

DG

Edgar, thanks for your considered post. I'm glad that we can discuss these things without them being acrimonious in any way. Please don't think that I am without sympathy for things which kill your workflow, because I hate the same sort of issues cropping up on my systems.

DG

@inwinterhesleeps said:

[...] We don't want or need to hear how you think [...], and you are not qualified to do this [...] So why comment? [...] It's just silly [...] DG, by all means reply to a thread if you have a solution or can be helpful in some way [...]

Tom

Tom - with all due respect: DG has generously helped and supported fellow users in this forum (and a few others too, BTW) on more occasions than I am able to count, so your reply is simply inappropriate.

@rverne10 said:

1. Group all of your instruments together (strings, woodwinds I and II, brass I and II and  percussion) into various instances of VE and do not use any VI instances unless you have some over riding reason (although I can't think of one)  I believe this will be a possible solution.

 

That's what I would have suggested but what if you wanted to utilize the nice features of VI Pro?  I think I'm beginning to see where Edgar is coming from because If I were a Mac/Logic user and I was considering purchasing VI Pro this 5 minute authentication process every time I load up a VI might just kill it for me.  Hmmmm! that's a tough call.  Well, I hope a solution can be found but at the same time why hold up VI Pro's release for PC users just because of time it takes for a Mac to authenticate?

BTW, regarding DG, I have learned quite a bit from his posts.  If I could just tap into his brain and take the things that he's forgotten about this stuff I would so gracious[:D]  I learn stuff even when I don't know what the hell he's talking about so as far as I'm concerned DG can post to his hearts content. 

Dietz and Jasen,

You will notice that in my post I stated quite clearly that I am all for DG replying with helpful information.

It is just unfortunate that he keeps posting how everything is just fine as it is because things are working for him in response to someone else reporting a problem. This belittles the problem brought up by others and is particularly inappropriate when a MacOS issue is discussed as his signature and the nature of his comments suggest he uses a Windows PC.

So again I would request that he avoids making excuses for and defending VSL. We all love VSL, but certain things do need to be improved and we don't want our threads diminished by unhelpful opinions that are not even regarding the same platform.

DG, perhaps you could consider your comments before you post them and really think about if they are helpful to the issue at hand, and not advocating changing to a Windows PC. That would be much appreciated.

Tom

@inwinterhesleeps said:

Dietz and Jasen,

You will notice that in my post I stated quite clearly that I am all for DG replying with helpful information [...]

Tom

You're applying double standards, don't you?

@inwinterhesleeps said:

This belittles the problem

I've got this issue that I'm reseaching on my computer with the .fxp saves the Vienna Instruments is supposed to do from the stand alone menu-they won't open and the VI folds up and packs its bags when I try to save in the fxp mode of saving presets. I'm working on the issue as a thought problem right now and when I get some time I will dig into the hardware and software (reloads) that have to be worked out. But right now I feel that VSL is not working with me, when I get back to it we'll probably all be on the VI pro anyway.

I find this discussion very useful. VSL does show more openness in accepting criticisms, suggestions, ideas from the users. I don't think any of us appreciate Microsoft or Apple [:@] doing their thing to our plans for using their software or in my case buying out the manuracturer (E Magic) and then abruptly ending support for some wonderfully pricy equipment . And actually Microsoft has gotten a lot better over the years in listening to their customers. The slow license reads to me I guess are just not an issue-the analogy with the car didn't work either.  "Hey love, sit tight while I visit the gents, OK? I'm back in three little minutes" then run and get the valet to start the car. Or whatever. The big name artist or producer has a cell phone right? " Say what guy, could you give me a call just before you pull up to the studio? You can? You're the greatest! "

Whatever.

The fact is, every musician has issues with the bow hairs breaking, the rosin crumbling , the reeds splitting, the cases getting dented , the bench, being too low, too high,  the out of tune piano (damn that tuner), the jam left on the ivories,  the flem blocking the larynx, the stiff wrist that only yields painfully, the flimsy music stand, the flyaway paper music scores, the crappy copy, the poor lighting, the squeaky chair, the irate conductor, the noisy audience, the failed air conditioning or heater, the sunlight in the eyes when out of doors, the bossy impresario who then won't pay,  the . . . .

other cranky musicians.

Hello rverne 10,

the load/save bug in the VI menu is already fixed in the next version of VI (not PRO) - should be released very soon [:)], we´ve been tangled up in some other beta testing, sorry for the delay.

The workaround for now is to save and load from within the Vienna Instruments, using the "disk" symbol and the preset/matrix list.

Best,

Paul

.

Coming back from a long break I just realized it.

The original poster was right...

Thanks all VSL workers for your efforts, but seriously.

You, and your company have f***ed me over so many times, that I have no choice but to feel utterly betrayed and horribly cheated. Your products just don't live up to the needs of fast producers. VST standard and speed that I expect from your competitors (EWQL etc.)

First, you discontinue the 1st edition, without giving us users a free VST upgrade. I, a loyal customer, unlike the pirates out there, spent €5.000 on, that I had to work 11 months to get it. Then gigastudio shuts down, not giving up their code for Open Souce Software so that we can keep developing it's issues. (Like crashing and having a win 3.11 stoneage interface).

Second, you have me tangled and bogged down by your stoneage installers. What happened to copy paste, and a small installation .exe? If my system crashes, I wish to just be able to copy my files right back in from some faster medium. We're not talking 4GB here, we're talking double and tripple digits.

Third, you treat me like a thief with your "protection" wich is actually more like a "spyware", but the ludicrous aspect of it is, that the minute your company decides to do something new, you drop the old users like they were nothing. Just like your did me in your 1st edition.

How do you expect users to trust Vienna Symphonic Library, when you can't even show the courtesy of printing a few real update DVD's for customers that spent €5000, that will cost you less than €30. I think it's outrageous.

It's important to vent this anger because I don't think you understand how mistreated we, the paying customers feel.

Steinberg manages to run their business whilst charging for upgrades, but they don't ask for €5000. They ask for €500 for the reaaally big leaps. I think you are overpricing customers.

With all this said. I feel better. I can't stay quiet. You need to improve your loyalty to customers aswell. You are as dependent on us as we are on you.

You have rewarded piracy, and not your paying customers. When will you give us 1st edition buyers a reasonable upgrade pricing?

To end this on a happier note, your product is great and has wonderful potential. As it is now, though, people are better off buying from more serious competitors that reward paying customers.

Not letting the 1st editioners upgrade, at a heavy discount, is a move that will cost you more in the end. I'm sure of it.

I'm sorry, that's just the way I feel about it.

For what it's worth, on my Mac Pro 2.26 Nehalem, the first time I launch VE Pro it takes about a minute and 45 seconds.  Any time after that it takes maybe 20 seconds.  I usually launch a VE Pro 64 bit and a 32 bit.  The first one takes 1:45, then next is lightening fast.  It was definitely slower on my old G5, but I have absolutely no complaints with start up time.

I have also learned to keep the dongle plugged in directly to the the computer, rather than through a USB hub.  This avoid any "no licenses found" problem I was getting when using a hub.  All in all, I'm extremely happy and I really can't imagine what VSL could do to improve this.  Wish I didn't have to use a dongle at all, but for the thousands of dollars that this software is worth, I can totally understand why they would want to make it hard to "share".

My system has been rock solid.  And I must also add that by VSL releasing VI Pro, it has added tremendous value to all of my existing investment.  They could have milked that 100 ways, but instead they offered a very inexpensive upgrade to their VI software that unlocks previously unfathomable potential to the libraries that I already purchased.  I can't tell you how much I have appreciated that!

On top of that, after having met Paul in NYC when he does his tours, I can tell you that these guys are not only talented but genuinely nice guys and seriously want to put the most powerful tools in their user's hands.  Why else would they have undertaken this absolutely insane task of sampling a complete orchestra?  It's crazy.  Their piano is second to none, I could go on.  I know of no competitors that come close to matching VSL in sound quality or listening to their customers.  VI Pro is proof of that.

@midnightstudios said:

For what it's worth, on my Mac Pro 2.26 Nehalem, the first time I launch VE Pro it takes about a minute and 45 seconds.  Any time after that it takes maybe 20 seconds.  I usually launch a VE Pro 64 bit and a 32 bit.  The first one takes 1:45, then next is lightening fast.  It was definitely slower on my old G5, but I have absolutely no complaints with start up time.

Are you using the latest version of VE Pro? On my W7 system launch time has gone down from 4 minutes to around 30 seconds.

DG

I lost more production time with FxPansion's way of authorizing a few weeks ago than is probable with any dongle scheme. Suddenly and mysteriously there was a corrupt serial number and I had reached my maximum of three auths, their server was hinky, didn't handle my first 4 support tickets - so there's me and three production days working around 'no drums'. I've had other annoyances with disk auth, and prefer syncrosoft overall.Their server snafu cost me minutes but not days waiting for somebody to see a support ticket, for instance.

The license check, OSX.6.4, goes right quick here, coupla seconds, but I have a dozen or so licenses and not hundreds.

@DG said:

 Edgar, I know that we don't see eye to eye on this issue, but some of your problems are actually caused by the fact that you are using OSX (the need to re-boot, for example). I don't really think that it's fair to try to hold VSL responsible for the inflexibility of Apple's OS.

However, I (and I'm sure VSL) would be interested to hear about a better copy protection system, if there is one. Do you have any thoughts? I'm assuming that it is not cost effective for VSL to come up with their own. To my knowledge there are 3 main sorts of copy protection:

1. Challenge/response. This one seems to be cracked almost before it has been released.
2. Dongle. I only really know anything about Syncrosoft and iLok. I do know that most iLok products are cracked very quickly, and Syncrosoft ones take a lot longer. I also know that if VSL was using iLok, we wouldn't even be having this discussion, because there are no 64bit drivers for OSX yet for iLok.

   DG