I think that the crux of the matter is that the Appassionata Strings is a smaller Collection than some of the others. Therefore some things have to be left out. It is a matter of opinion as to whether or not VSL made the right decisions.
DG
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>I think that the crux of the matter is that the Appassionata Strings is a smaller Collection than some of the others. Therefore some things have to be left out. It is a matter of opinion as to whether or not VSL made the right decisions.
I was even wondering if the Appassionata where not made outside of VSL, as they are very strange "key ranges" and "key ranges" are depending of the articulation
Best
Cyril
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For the most part it's not a problem - but other instruments have some kind of range limit on some articulations. Epic Horns Legato for instance has a smaller range than its Staccs.
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[...] I was even wondering if the Appassionata where not made outside of VSL, as they are very strange "key ranges" and "key ranges" are depending of the articulation [...]
😄 ... I never thought that orchestral sampling would leave any room for conspiration theories!
Thanks for that, Cyril, you've made my day. :-)
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library -
Hi Dietz and Christian,
I am not speaking of conspiration theories [:O]
As the Appassionata does not look to meet the high level of other VSL product I was wondering if you did not subcontracted it !
I have wrote a detailed mail about the curiosity of the key ranges of this product, it will be lovely if, for the beauty of the thing, you could arrange this.
It is not the legato but also other articulation that does not have the same keyranges
I have also send a mail before about the lack of articulation in the Bass and about articulations been available for the Appas. Violin and not for Appas. Viola and Appas. Cello
The Appassionata is a very good library, I love it ; I just think it's a pity that you encouter those little problems, and as you see I am not the only one making this remark.
May be you could spend a little time on it so it is as perfect as other VSL products
Best
Cyril
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Part of the mail I send :
I did a quick comparaison, not all matrix and articulations have been tested.
Appassionata Viola :
VA-14 Staccato, Sfz are ending on A
VA-14 Detache, pizz and tremolo are ending on D
VA-14 Sus-vib is ending on G
Appassionata Violin :
VI 20-Staccato, Detache, pizz end on D#
VI 20- Sus vib, sfz ends on A
VI-20- Tremolo ends on G
VI-20- perfs legato ends on D
Appassionata Cello
VC 12-Staccato, Detache, pizz, Sus vib, sfz, Tremolo ends on A#
The Perf-legato are ending on E
Appassionata Bass
DB 10-Staccato, Detache, pizz, Sus vib, sfz, Tremolo are ending on C
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Appassionata basses are supplemental, not a complete replacement to all the other string ensembles and articulations. So not every single possible articulation was done. Most of the time legato is not as necessary on bass parts in a large orchestra (which is where you would use this size ensemble) as it is with violins, violas or cellos. It will probably be added at some time, or maybe not. Because you can use the other basses for legato soli.
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I'm going to buy Appassionata and Appassionata Extended... No legato basses?
It's hard to understand, really...
I have made also the same remark before !!!!
VSL answer is : if you want Legato bass buy Orchestral string DVD
I have also noticed that depending of the articulation the last note is not the same (see last post of the 2nd page of this subject)
VSL answer is : it is not a bug it is normal !!!
Best
Cyril
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This thing is a real problem for my template and composition. I can't match the Appassionata vioins, violas and cellos with the basses [:(]
Even with the 6 Double basses ensemble + the one of the chamber it sounds unbalanced. [:S]
It would be very cool if VSL team could finish the appassionata library. [:D]
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Just to add my two cents, others are absolutely correct here--basses tend not to use much legato/portamento/glissando. It's very tough on bassists' fingers! The celli have a more prominent sound to which the basses add a ton of depth, but overall we hear the details of the cello line and very few details of the bass line. Some competitors have gone a similar route and excluded the basses from tough forms of playing that receive little use as well. It makes a lot of sense. Now as a soloist, sure legato would be important, but not at all as a group in that playing style.
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This thing is a real problem for my template and composition. I can't match the Appassionata vioins, violas and cellos with the basses
I totally disagree with this. You can easily match the Appassionata strings in general balance by using a combo of Orchestral and Chamber. The reason is very simple - in a live orchestra, there are varying numbers of basses. And you have 8 basses with that combo, and full legato. Also, the Chamber basses have a really nice additional complexity in their legato, when layered with the Orchestral.
However, I have to add - I don't really disagree with you Vincent M in general, because of course it would be nice to have some kind of huge, Appassionata Bass legato. It is always good to have more samples. So you are not wrong, it is just that there are alternatives. Another thing I've done is layer in some SOLO BASS. Wow ! That creates some real complexity.
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Casiquire, as a trained classical bassist, I do not agree with your comments in total. In one sense I do think they are correct in that in terms of "Hollywood" the techniques are not used as much. However, overall, in the orchestral literature, legato, in particular, is critical. In terms of a large orchestra, the articulations of the bass section in AP strings are lacking. OTOH, one of the reasons I really appreciate VSL is that for orchestra/chamber/solo the bass is complete.
Note that when shifting positions on the bass, like the other stringed instruments, the string is kept pressed against the fingerboard. So yes, it takes more physical strength to play the bass, and the bass certainly is less agile.
In general, some composers tended to write extensive bass parts, while others tended to mostly ignore it.
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But, as a trained classical bassist, legato IS much more useful. That's the point. As a large "appassionata" section, not everybody is going to be a trained soloist, and having all the bassists sliding around will muck up the strength of the low bass notes when the whole orchestra is playing. If a bit of legato is absolutely necessary, adding a bass soloist would certainly help get that sound.
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That's not exactly true. It depends on the line of music. For example, if you have a bass and cello line doubled in octaves, on a suspenseful film score, and they slide downward in a dark, threatening way - there you would love to have legato basses. Because on that one slide, all the basses together would emphasize the effect of the line.
Though on the other hand, if the basses are simply playing a typical bass line underneath an entire orchestra, the legato is simply not heard. So the point would be that most of the time it is not needed in orchestral practice, but it certainly can be useful. But as I said earlier there are many options if you use the other ensembles.
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Actually, I was talking "orchestra" not "solo". Solo playing is a very different world than orchestra playing, and normally uses different strings: thinner and tuned a step higher: A, E, B, F#, with a tone that emphasizes the overtones of the instrument to a greater extent, with the instrument sounding a bit more like a cello. The thinner strings help a great deal when having to play in very high thumb position, as is required in solo playing (though not in orchestra playing).
But again, composers either wrote significant orchestral parts for the bass or they did not: Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler, R. Strauss on the one hand who did, and Copland and Rimsky-Korsakov, among others, on the other who generally did not.
I will admit that one of my personal frustrations is that among instruments, there is a great deal of misinformation about the bass floating around. As for orchestral bassists not being able to play legato: no, pro symphonic bass section members would have no trouble playing legato, as it is a fundamental required technique. In terms of double-bass method books, one starts learning how to play legato fairly early on.
Again, I agree that in "Hollywood" styles less is required. But, I do not equate "Hollywood" with the true symphonic orchestral literature (or at least what "Hollywood" often has become). Now OTOH, equating the virtuoso brilliance of "Hollywood" techniques with Zimmer... [:D] <paging Errikos> [;)] For that, the basses really do not need to play legato (down beats are often enough, as musical counterpoint between multiple parts doesn't seem to often exist). But, I digress.
