@Cyril said:

[...] I was even wondering if the Appassionata where not made outside of VSL, as they are very strange "key ranges" and "key ranges" are depending of the articulation [...]

Hi Dietz and Christian,

I am not speaking of conspiration theories [:O]

As the Appassionata does not look to meet the high level of other VSL product I was wondering if you did not subcontracted it !

I have wrote a detailed mail about the curiosity of the key ranges of this product, it will be lovely if, for the beauty of the thing, you could arrange this.

It is not the legato but also other articulation that does not have the same keyranges

I have also send a mail before about the lack of articulation in the Bass and about articulations been available for the Appas. Violin and not for Appas. Viola and Appas. Cello

The Appassionata is a very good library, I love it ;  I just think it's a pity that you encouter those little problems, and as you see I am not the only one making this remark.

May be you could spend a little time on it so it is as perfect as other VSL products

Best

Cyril

-----------------------------

Part of the mail I send :

I did a quick comparaison, not all matrix and articulations have been tested.

Appassionata Viola :

VA-14 Staccato, Sfz are ending on A

VA-14 Detache, pizz and tremolo are ending on D

VA-14 Sus-vib is ending on G

Appassionata Violin :

VI 20-Staccato, Detache, pizz end on D#

VI 20- Sus vib, sfz ends on A

VI-20- Tremolo ends on G

VI-20- perfs legato ends on D

Appassionata Cello

VC 12-Staccato, Detache, pizz, Sus vib, sfz, Tremolo ends on A#

The Perf-legato are ending on E

Appassionata Bass

DB 10-Staccato, Detache, pizz, Sus vib, sfz, Tremolo are ending  on C

 Noooooooooooooooooooooooo..........................

It's like Groundhog Day.  [:S]

DG

Appassionata basses are supplemental, not a complete replacement to all the other string ensembles and articulations.  So not every single possible articulation was done.  Most of the time legato is not as necessary on bass parts in a large orchestra (which is where you would use this size ensemble) as it is with violins, violas or cellos.  It will probably be added at some time, or maybe not.  Because you can use the other basses for legato soli. 

 I'm going to buy Appassionata and Appassionata Extended...  No legato basses?  [:O]

It's hard to understand,  really...

 I have SE +,  so,  i have the legato basses (with only 2 velocity layers,  but it's better than nothing)...   But orchestral have not

the Appassionata sound.  The sound will not be gorgeous as the appassionata collection,  i will have to tweak it a lot.  [8o|]

This thing is a real problem for my template and composition.  I can't match the Appassionata vioins,  violas and cellos with the basses  [:(]

Even with the 6 Double basses ensemble + the one of the chamber it sounds unbalanced.  [:S]

It would be very cool if VSL team could finish the appassionata library.  [:D]

@Vincent M said:

This thing is a real problem for my template and composition.  I can't match the Appassionata vioins,  violas and cellos with the basses  

I totally disagree with this.  You can easily match the Appassionata strings in general balance by using a combo of Orchestral and Chamber.  The reason is very simple - in a live orchestra, there are varying numbers of basses.  And you have 8 basses with that combo, and full legato.  Also, the Chamber basses have a really nice additional complexity in their legato, when layered with the Orchestral. 

However, I have to add - I don't really disagree with you Vincent M in general, because of course it would be nice to have some kind of huge, Appassionata Bass legato.  It is always good to have more samples.  So you are not wrong, it is just that there are alternatives.  Another thing I've done is layer in some SOLO BASS. Wow !  That creates some real complexity. 

 VSL is such a revolutionnary company that sometimes I don't stop to ask things and complain.  Sorry for this.  [:D]

Casiquire, as a trained classical bassist, I do not agree with your comments in total.  In one sense I do think they are correct in that in terms of "Hollywood" the techniques are not used as much.  However, overall, in the orchestral literature, legato, in particular, is critical.  In terms of a large orchestra, the articulations of the bass section in AP strings are lacking.  OTOH, one of the reasons I really appreciate VSL is that for orchestra/chamber/solo the bass is complete.

Note that when shifting positions on the bass, like the other stringed instruments, the string is kept pressed against the fingerboard.  So yes, it takes more physical strength to play the bass, and the bass certainly is less agile.

In general, some composers tended to write extensive bass parts, while others tended to mostly ignore it.

That's not exactly true. It depends on the line of music.  For example, if you have a bass and cello line doubled in octaves, on a suspenseful film score, and they slide downward in a dark, threatening way - there you would love to have legato basses.  Because on that one slide, all the basses together would emphasize the effect of the line. 

Though on the other hand, if the basses are simply playing a typical bass line underneath an entire orchestra, the legato is simply not heard.  So the point would be that most of the time it is not needed in orchestral practice, but it certainly can be useful.  But as I said earlier there are many options if you use the other ensembles. 

Actually, I was talking "orchestra" not "solo".  Solo playing is a very different world than orchestra playing, and normally uses different strings: thinner and tuned a step higher: A, E, B, F#, with a tone that emphasizes the overtones of the instrument to a greater extent, with the instrument sounding a bit more like a cello.  The thinner strings help a great deal when having to play in very high thumb position, as is required in solo playing (though not in orchestra playing).

But again, composers either wrote significant orchestral parts for the bass or they did not: Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler, R. Strauss on the one hand who did, and Copland and Rimsky-Korsakov, among others, on the other who generally did not.

I will admit that one of my personal frustrations is that among instruments, there is a great deal of misinformation about the bass floating around.  As for orchestral bassists not being able to play legato: no, pro symphonic bass section members would have no trouble playing legato, as it is a fundamental required technique.  In terms of double-bass method books, one starts learning how to play legato fairly early on.

Again, I agree that in "Hollywood" styles less is required.  But, I do not equate "Hollywood" with the true symphonic orchestral literature (or at least what "Hollywood" often has become).  Now OTOH, equating the virtuoso brilliance of "Hollywood" techniques with Zimmer... [:D] <paging Errikos> [;)]  For that, the basses really do not need to play legato (down beats are often enough, as musical counterpoint between multiple parts doesn't seem to often exist).  But, I digress.

Beethoven wrote some great bass parts which showed how revolutionary his approach was, considering the treatment of the basses prior to him.  For example in the 5th symphony or the 9th.  He is of course one of the inventors of the useage of the modern orchestra.  Interesting how in the 5th symphony, not only are there good bass parts but also solo piccolo!

You're right about Hollywood (mis)treatment of basses, as all they are is the bottom part of a chord -  not basses, not performers, not really even humans, just a low key on the composer's keyboard transcribed by an orchestrator. 

HOWEVER - I must add, that is Hollywood today, under the influence of the Barbarian Horde of the Zimmerians.  In the past, exemplified by the studio era of the 1940s, one could hear full string orchestral scoring on a regular basis by, most significantly, Austrian expatriot composers.  The good Hollywood music then was mainly Austrian.  In fact, one could easily go so far as to say, Hollywood music was invented by Austrians.  This influence persists to the present day (in the few good scores) with John Williams being a near-disciple of the greatest film composer of the B.H. Era (Before Herrmann) --  Korngold.

William, I agree, what "Hollywood" is post Zimmer, is very different from what it once was.