Although I haven't been a very active member of the VSL forum but I just wanted to back up a lot of the posts I've seen here regarding the upgrade path decision, which I think is ridiculous, as many other users also have. I "invested" in the Pro Edition and Performance Set way back in 2004, and I also believed the promise that this investment would last a "lifetime", which turned out to be a lie. Whatever else has been said in previous posts I do not personally trust a company that has blatantly lied to me, and therefore will no longer be purchasing any of their products ever again. The photocopy of the original manual (from Mobius' post) which I own (and stupidly believed!) really sums up the whole matter as far as I'm concerned. I now feel ashamed that my investment (which, in a very patronising fashion, certain senior members of the forum claimed wasn't even supposed to be an "investment" after all!) has enabled VSL to expand as a company and then do this to their loyal customers. I am very suspicious of the motives of a company which would do this sort of thing, and it seems to be purely for financial reasons.

I was quite excited by the VI libraries when they first came out, and I listened critically to several of the new demos which were made using the new libraries. However I was a little disappointed in many cases, as to my ears most of the demos really did NOT sound any better than some of the fantastic demos made with the original Pro Edition and Performance Set (the overriding factor is obviously the musicality of the arranger, rather than the sheer number or format of samples he was using, or whether he was using the latest version of the sample player). This is mainly what discouraged me from spend 1000's more on extra samples and the new sample player, rather than financial reasons. Now there is even less reason to even consider "investing" in VI, due to the large extra costs that would be involved unless I go for the new libraries pretty much immediately, before the deadline!

I know that the VI technology has been around for 2 years (which incidentally was also pointed out in a very patronising way by another senior forum member), and I was seriously considering upgrading at some point. The technology and number of samples is increasing all the time so it must have something going for it (I'll admit that!). However I certainly will not be doing so now, and I don't want to have anything to do with this company any more. There are many alternative options which perhaps aren't as comprehensive as VSL as a whole, but gathered together there are many other viable and interesting ways to expand your sound palette which don't involve helpling VSL to achieve a monopoly over orchestral sampling which they are clearly aiming for. I hope other users come to the same conclusion, nice work VSL for alienating loyal customers. 

I 2nd the motion.  

...or any July for that matter. I just haven't seen a shred of reason why it should be otherwise; so I approve of the recent ideas in general.

It has been incredible during the past few days to see how much love so many people nurtured in their hearts for this company. Even those users who are walking away, it is obvious from their indignance that this recent betrayal hit deep. At the same time, when VSL has been mostly obtuse, silent, epigrammatic, almost unyielding, contradictory, and of suspect motives, so many people here have tried to offer intelligent alternatives, have literally pleaded not just for money, but for this bond that has developed all these years between them and this company, through the magic of music-making and problem-sharing and solving... I believe a lot of people feel (and I would agree with them) that they have shared in the flowering of VSL, a lot of them have been hitherto very proud to have been associated with it, and feel this recent debacle to be a downright shame...

Especially due to the nature of this association which is one of trust - it is a licensed product, not something that can be sold and re-sold (hence a one-off transaction) - an association of continuance, I would like to see a proposed resolution by the company that reflects this kind of association.

Sincerely,

Errikos. 

 Marzipan:

I certainly understand your upset. However I'd also like to reiterate what I think is a fact: a painful irony about the idealistic pursuit of excellence in making products is that, in the absence of huge mass market demand for such products, those products - - costly to produce - -  will, inevitably, be costly to buy. What, for example, do you think the demand is for samples of every possible articulation of the contrabass trombone?  What I'm getting it is that the nature of the enterprise in which VSL has engaged is deeply idealistic - - and therefore cannot avoid the irony I mentioned.

I'm not trying to suggest that VSL did not make a mistake in announcing, summarily, a decision that has evoked an intensely negative response from many loyal customers, or that a perceived breach of promise should go unnoticed, but it seems to me in the interest of all concerned, to be aware of each other's situation, to think before ascribing base motives to the other and try to work out some mutually agreeable, if (necessarily) imperfect, compromise. 

@Fred Story said:

So I'll ask straight out - would you consider extending the current upgrade offer to 12 months?

Our sales departement will contact you.

best

Herb

I find this very encouraging.  Respectfully, I will be very forthcoming with my intentions in order to be considered for extra time, as my business situation at this moment would reveal, however I won't bore the forum with these details.  I'll bore the sales department!

Seriously, though, it seems that Herb really does want to keep his old old OLD costomers by writing that.  Bravo.

Clark

@Fred Story said:

Herb, A detailed, thoughtful response. Thank you for taking time to make the explanation. I wouldn't begin to question your calculations. (Even if I thought it was appropriate, I wouldn't know how.) But given the relative cost of the product, and the fact that your customer base isn't exactly a wealthy lot, I still think some more time would be in order. If you had announced this a year ago, and given us 12 months - I doubt you would have received this kind of reaction. While I'm still not thrilled that you've essentially changed the deal after my purchase (technical arguments to the contrary notwithstanding), it's mostly the suddenness of the move which has taken me aback. I REALLY want to do the upgrade. I just don't think I can do it within the next six months. Given the circumstances, I don't think 12 months is an unreasonable extension. So I'll ask straight out - would you consider extending the current upgrade offer to 12 months?

Our sales departement will contact you.

best

Herb

@stevesong said:

 Marzipan:

 

I certainly understand your upset. However I'd also like to reiterate what I think is a fact: a painful irony about the idealistic pursuit of excellence in making products is that, in the absence of huge mass market demand for such products, those products - - costly to produce - -  will, inevitably, be costly to buy. What, for example, do you think the demand is for samples of every possible articulation of the contrabass trombone?  What I'm getting it is that the nature of the enterprise in which VSL has engaged is deeply idealistic - - and therefore cannot avoid the irony I mentioned.

 

I'm not trying to suggest that VSL did not make a mistake in announcing, summarily, a decision that has evoked an intensely negative response from many loyal customers, or that a perceived breach of promise should go unnoticed, but it seems to me in the interest of all concerned, to be aware of each other's situation, to think before ascribing base motives to the other and try to work out some mutually agreeable, if (necessarily) imperfect, compromise. 

@John O'Neill said:

I would suggest to Herb that, if the legacy customers number so few, that this minority group would all be given the option of contacting the sales department to do a deal when the time to upgrade comes. Then everyone wins . A nod from the company in that direction would end the discontent felt amongst VSLs original customers. Perhaps the VSL company would email this group privately if it is not a big logistical exercise and assure them of a value for money upgrade when the time comes. I would like to echo a quote from one of the contributers made above (I) " simply don't want all the extra articulations right now, until I can buy an off the shelf PC/Mac with 32gig of RAM etc." This is a common sense approach to upgrading in my opinion and a company as professional as VSL with customers who are serious about making professional recordings must be able to judge when customers are in a situation to take full advantage of upgrades. Please don't close out the customers that are most likely to upgrade in the future at a 'common sense' time. John O'Neill

My silence on this issue has not been an indication that I'm OK with this situation - it's only been because I didn't want to fan the already rising flames. (I have been avidly following progress  though) I can't pretend that I'm going to be in position to upgrade substantially in the foreseeable future, but my understanding of 'investment' was the same as those who have eloquently argued their case here.

I'm only chipping in now to register a) my interest in keeping my possibilty of a future upgrade 'live' as it seems increasing numbers are doing, and b) perhaps indicate that it's not only those who have been active on the forum that are affected or concerned.

Notwithstanding that, it's a great shame that this difficulty has occurred - I'm sure the company did not intend to upset anyone, and that the decision was taken with the best of business intentions. It does appear that many of us feel somewhat aggrieved though, and I would urge Herb to leave no stone unturned in looking for a solution that appeases the disgruntled customers among us, but that also preserves the integrity and future of the firm. There's nothing else out there that comes close to this one as far as I can see. [Y]

Regards,

John 

What's the story for individual instrument upgrades? is it possilbe to have the SE and SE Plus, and then upgrade individual instruments [say, first violins] to the standard or extended library level? or would that be soo messy with licences that it would drive anybody crazy? :D

*Rob 

I have the Pro ed Orchestral Cube and was one of the early adopters. Being a hobbyist, this was a huge investment. For different reasons I have not been musically active for some year now, knowing that I could always upgrade VSL when needed in a more musically active future.

Accidently I happend to stumble upon the information regarding the suspension of the VIP program for us old-timers, and it felt like a slap in the face. VSL was one of the companies I trusted to keep a high quality and taking care of its customers. And keeping its promises. Yes Herb, as evident in this thread your customers regarded your statment on the VIP-program as future-proof.

Now I've seen in this thread a couple of attemps to try to explain the reasoning behind this ill-percieved move:

1."it's becoming too complex to keep the discount calculator up-to-date". Several propsals from users would mitigate this. Hence, there do exist a solution to this if there is a will.

When this argument didn't hold, another argument came up:

2. "the editing cost is so high, so the users have been given way too much discount already". So, if e.g. Steinberg choses to switch code platform for Cubase for some reason but keeps the functions/interface the same, this would suddenly be a totally new product warranting no upgrade path?

I'm sorry, but from many of your customers perspective VSL simply withdraws a promise/agreement made at the time of purchase, as has been stated several times in this thread. I just wanted to add my voice to all those that already have rightly complained about the abolishment of the VIP-policy.

I do not plan to upgrade this year. In the future, when I may be more active, do you really think I would start from scratch buying the VI-edition for €€€€??

Please take reason and work on a solution based on the many good proposals made in this thread so that the people that kept you afloat when you started (or those that bought non-VI editions last year) don't feel betrayed by your sudden change of policy. We invested in VSL based on your stated commitments.

/Chris

I would 'fourth' the motion of having the 'few remaining' users who have not upgraded from Pro Ed (etc) to VIs being able to do so in the future - please say this will be possible! I may use the special offer period to pick up a few of the collections in the next couple of months but there's no way I'll be able to buy (and no way I need) all the VI versions by summer. 

Best,

David 

Thump!! 

@cmm said:

Before this thread hits the bottom, I wanted to see if Herb or anyone else at VSL could clairfy where this discussion has ended up.

Early on we were told that we can extend beyond the 15 July deadline if we contact VSL sales or our local distributors, that would get us another three months grace to fund the upgrade.

At a later point, after indicating he might need more time than that, Fred was told that Sales would call him and discuss a further extension.

Please understand I'm definitely not trying to stir this up further, just looking for what the final 'word' is on the upgrade timeline. I for one would be with Fred on needing as much time as possible to gather the financing.

Thanks in advance for the clarification

Well?? 

I was listening to Jay Chattaway's interview on Hetoreyn's podcast (well done!! Looking forward to the following ones). I surmised from what was said, that Mr. Chattaway has also not opted to upgrade to the Cube yet, and the reason he has yet to do so is certainly not that he is a loser who cannot pay his bills... There are different reasons why VSL users have not upgraded their software yet. I am also sure that he is at a level where he could not care less about his perpetual rights to upgrade being revoked, and doubtlessly there are others in that category. He is just an unexpected example of the apparently not so "few" users still working with Pro Edition.

Even if such an eminent TV composer was working with VI, that would not constitute a reason to ignore the plight of the lesser known "investors". I am hoping the management is deliberating an answer to CMM's and Fred Story's posts. The rest of us are also awaiting this with great anticipation.

Sincerely,

Errikos. 

Well I eventually went down the route of upgrading now, because I don't have a lot of hope that things will change, and there is no way I could afford to upgrade later. So I loaded up a credit card, and now have a whole stack of shiny new DVDs.

But, for my peace of mind, I'd still like to see the VSL team try to resolve this for everyone else. I now find myself more committed to their products than ever. Not only has my expenditure now doubled, but I am now at their mercy because I've bought into the VI player, which makes me feel quite nervous. In theory they could pull all kinds of stunts now that the ability to play the sounds rests with their own software. I can't help worrying how long it'll be until I can't use the samples without paying again. A move that restored my belief in their commitment to the customer would really help.

@Patrick Wilson said:

I would point out that since I bought a new Intel Mac and Logic 8 last December, the Performance Tool in Pro Edition no longer works (in EX24) rendering the move to Vienna Instruments even more essential. I would have hoped that VSL would have addressed that but they've apparently not.

It's all very fine for them to say that Apple moved the goal posts but I still think VSL should have tried to fix that for Pro Edition EXS users. I would like to see more support for legacy products please.

i'd like to annotate that the functionality of the performance tool has not changed since the move to the intel platform, what apperently has changed is the editor for EXS and obviously some related interface options.

the logic 8.01 update - though a little bit hard to find, but available at http://www.apple.com/logicstudio/download/ - fixed most of the issues, at least one can again edit exs instruments without corrupting them (note: legato instruments are nothing else but especially mapped exs instruments). there is nothing from VSL side which can be done currently.

this and several further issues also on other sampler platforms should let it appear obvious that the move to the Vienna Instruments format and player was an essential step to provide proper support in a current manner without the need to rely on the good will and release of updates by a third party.

it should not remain unmentioned that integrating the performance tool into EXS by emagic has been an important step for VSL to make true legato available for this sampling platform in a simple, intuitive and performant way. later the 32.000 instruments and the 2 GB memory limits have been addressed and we are looking forward the remaining issues will be too.

christian