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    @steff3 said:

    however I would clearly welcome in upgrade to the isolated instrument packs that are announced - as from french oboe to a french oboe VI it is a much more reasonable upgrade path than to the Woodwinds I VI .... but that is maybe only my opinion.

    If VSL plans to offer each separate instrument or ensemble as a download product then I have no doubt that almost all users of the Horizon products will welcome an upgrade path restricted only to the accordant download instruments. If they donĀ“t upgrade till October they will also wait another year until all download instruments are  available.  This could function as it already does with the guitars.

    Best

    Rainer


  •  PaulR:

    What you say appears to imply that, in your view, as long as a decision is made by a company, it is, by definition, a good decision and that those adversely affected by it or concerned that it might adversely affect the future of the company should mind their manners and avoid registering their upset or suggesting reconsideration of a decision they think to be wrong or unfair.  

    As you have repeatedly stated, you are not upset or angry. You certainly have every right to express your contentment. But, the fact that you are content, does not mean that all those who do not share in your contentment are ignorant, stupid or ill-mannered. I would submit that any reasonably objective observer of this thread would note that it evidences quite a great deal of upset and anger on the part of a good number of people - -both those affected by the change in policy and those, like myself, who are not personally affected by it. Why is that? You seem to suggest that people are motivated only by petty self-interest.  Yet that doesnā€™t explain why there are people like myself who have no immediate practical stake in this argument take the time to comment upon it. Could it be that some perceive this decision as a mistake that may have a long-term negative impact on VSLā€™s business? Could it be that some have enormous respect for VSL, its products, its level of service and its uniquely collaborative culture and want its business to thrive, but fear that a wrong-headed policy may threaten all that it has achieved and could achieve?

    You have said that you find these expressions of upset  ā€œshameful.ā€ Yet, they are simply a response to what many perceive as a breach of promises that VSL repeatedly made, in its advertising, and, as noted by an earlier poster, by Herb himself on these forums. The most casual observer of the human condition and of history canā€™t help but conclude that, in every form of relationship, personal, business or diplomatic, breaches of promise arouse strong feelings and may have large consequences - - and are recognized as a serious matter in the law. Hence, in every country, there is a large body of contract law and there is also international law regarding agreements made between nations.

    What would you say if, taking their cue from VSL regarding the finite nature of promises, those who purchased licenses for the Pro Edition or Horizon series, argued that they should no longer be bound by the terms of the license originally agreed to and decided - - using some version of the ā€œwhatā€™s good for the goose is good for the ganderā€ argument - - that it was now OK to sell their libraries? (Of course, I, explicitly and strongly, advise against this course of action.) I have no doubt that you would think that people who made this argument were wrong because they were breaking the terms of a contract to which they had agreed. You might argue that the promises made and implied by VSL in its advertising and by Herb on these forums do not have same force as the clickwrap licenses that accompany the VSL libraries. But, if you argue that a company has the right to breach promises when it finds them inconvenient to keep, how would you argue that its customers do not have a similar right? Is it that, in your view, companies have rights regarding contracts, explicit or implied, that individuals do not have? VSL says that unforeseen changes in circumstance have compelled it to revise its update policies. However, the revision of these policies creates a changed circumstance for VSL's customers. If one party to a contract abrogates part of that contract, is the other party to the contract still bound by it? How, exactly, would you resolve this? 

    As I noted in an earlier posting, Microsoft enabled the labeling of some computers as ā€œVista capableā€ when, in fact they were arguably not so capable and this questionable labeling has become the subject a class action lawsuit against Microsoft in the United States Federal courts. In other words the court has held that merely labeling a computer as ā€œVista capable,ā€ may have the force of a contractual agreement. Should you want to familiarize yourself with the basics of contract law in the U.S., visit:

    http://www.lectlaw.com/files/bul03.htm

    The answer to all this lies, I think, neither in wasteful and destructive lawsuits, nor in irate customers taking it upon themselves to breach their contractual obligations to VSL,  but in working out some kind of mutually satisfactory compromise. As to whether VSL would appear ā€œweak,ā€ if it reconsidered its decision, I think you are mistaken. When Apple lowered the price of the iPhone by $200 only 68 days after the initial release of the iPhone, there was a major outcry from early adopters (including Appleā€™s co-found Steve Wozniak). Eventually, Apple recognized that it had made a mistake and offered a rebate program. Although there was no explicit or implied contract regarding price stability between Apple and early adopters of the iPhone, it appears that Apple decided it would not be in its long-term interest to alienate a significant group of loyal customers. In the view of most observers, Apple did not appear, ā€œweak,ā€ on the contrary, it appeared intelligent enough and ā€œstrongā€ enough to recognize a mistake and correct it before it did serious harm to its business.

    You keep citing the Gettysburg address as if it were some peroration of extraordinary length and this leads me to suspect that you are not entirely familiar with it - - since it consists of only 279 words. You can find it at:

    http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/gettysburg.htm

    Best,
    Stephen


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    @steff3 said:

    LOL, great suggestion - so you have Horizon Overdrive (which was 200 ā‚¬ or so) and can now upgrade to the whole cube (which is more then 10 000ā‚¬) - very reasonable. šŸ˜Š

    I think Errikos meant to the relevant parts of the Symphonic Cube - i.e. if I have the Pro-Edition Strings then I could keep my upgrade to the Strings I+II VIs.

    I get the impression that some of the difficulty is that VSL intend to split things very differently, so that, for instance the individual violins package might include some of the violin articulations from Strings I, but also some from Appassionata, and Chamber. I don't know, but I can see how that would present a problem. Nevertheless, I still maintain that there is no problem if FE users are told that their upgrade route is only to the complete collections that are currently in the cube.


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    @Errikos said:

    Offer Pro Edition users one upgrade path only, the one that was promised - to the Cube.

    Thanks Pingu, that is what I meant. Steff3, before you laugh at other people's predicaments perhaps you should read their posts from the beginning as to avoid misunderstandings. I am sure Christian and VSL know what I am proposing: That owners of thousands of ā‚¬ā‚¬ā‚¬ā‚¬ worth of samples retain their ALREADY PURCHASED right to upgrade to the commensurate ā‚¬ā‚¬ā‚¬ā‚¬ worth of similar engines. If someone has one Horizon package worth ā‚¬200, then obviously needs to spend another ā‚¬9000 to the Cube. I think it was only you who may have misread this.

    Also thanks to Stevesong for at last someone addressed the issue of the Gettysburg "long-windedness"

    Best wishes, Errikos.

  • Stevesong:

    I read the PaulR bit and didn't read anymore - couldn't help noticing another monograph which is waayyyyy too long to read. You're a good guy Steve - but you need shorten things up to bullet points if you want to reach me. Either that - or make an appointment and we'll do lunch - depending on what sort of budget you've got in mind.

    Yes - I am confident that everything you say is correct and I almost certainly agree with everything you have written - whatever that is.

  • ... and how's the word count going Steve?

    When you get to 10,000 let me know and I'll send you a free binder.

    Pablo

  • Dear community

    Iā€™d like to add some final words regarding the upgrade pricing calculations, hopefully this is helpful for a better understanding of the whole situation.

    The discussion is always based on the statement of ā€œnot paying twice for the same samplesā€.
    ā€œSame samplesā€ means samples which are used a second time in a upgrade product, where we didnā€™t invest any additional manpower to produce these samples for the new product.

    This worked very well going from First Edition to Pro Edition on the same platforms.
    The already existing sample base was more or less copy & pasted for the new products.
    But it never worked changing to Vienna Instruments.

    We didnā€™t have to record the existing samples once again, but most of the database was completely reedited, especially the complex database of the performance samples (legatos and repetitions).
    You have to know that the editing manpower  is 10 times higher that the recording manpower.
    That means, for 1 hour recording audiodata you have to invest 10 hours and sometimes much more to get the samples ready.
    Other additional costs  are the software developement, all the mapping doing from scretch, and quality testing, which was an enormous task for the VIs.

    Finally you get a calculation of costs about the value of each sample in a certain product,
    and the result was, only 10% of the developement costs of Pro Edition and Horizon products could be added into the producing costs of the Symphonic Cube.

    In other words the correct mercandile calculation ā€œof the same samples ā€œ in the Symphonic Cube is only 900 Euros for Pro Edition user (including all relevant Horizon products).

    Thatā€™s  terrifying less, and I expected that our user base would have been very annoyed if we have offered only 900 Euros discount (instead of 4000 ā€“ 5000 Euros)

    So we decided to give as much discount as possible as long as possible, even this is heavely divergent to the correct commercial calculation.

    Now you could argue, that VSL is so expensive, that this fact shouldnā€™t matter.
    Generally the production costs of any library depends on the volume of the library, how much manpower ist invested to produce it. If you compare the sample price ration of our products to other companies products you will see, that our calculation is very, very tight.
    There is not much margin, especially considering and adding these large discounts.

    When we decided to discontinue the Sample Library products, it was clear that the ā€œwrongā€ discount system has to be discontinued also sometimes in the future. One solution could have been to lower the discounts step by step (which I didnā€™t prefer) or to keep the discounts to a certain point of time and offering a grace period with some extra bonus.

    best
    Herb


  • Thanks Herb. Few company bosses would bother to provide such a detailed explanation. I sympathise with the complainants, but would say in VSL's defence that at least they've given a few month's notice on their new upgrade policy. At the end of the day, the interests of the customer and those of the seller are not identical, and the issues raised here illustrate that very well. Can I also congratulate most posters on the civilised tone and consideration for others' points of view they've managed to achieve even while radically disagreeing with each other!


  • Herb, A detailed, thoughtful response. Thank you for taking time to make the explanation. I wouldn't begin to question your calculations. (Even if I thought it was appropriate, I wouldn't know how.) But given the relative cost of the product, and the fact that your customer base isn't exactly a wealthy lot, I still think some more time would be in order. If you had announced this a year ago, and given us 12 months - I doubt you would have received this kind of reaction. While I'm still not thrilled that you've essentially changed the deal after my purchase (technical arguments to the contrary notwithstanding), it's mostly the suddenness of the move which has taken me aback. I REALLY want to do the upgrade. I just don't think I can do it within the next six months. Given the circumstances, I don't think 12 months is an unreasonable extension. So I'll ask straight out - would you consider extending the current upgrade offer to 12 months?

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    @Fred Story said:

    Herb, A detailed, thoughtful response. Thank you for taking time to make the explanation. I wouldn't begin to question your calculations. (Even if I thought it was appropriate, I wouldn't know how.) But given the relative cost of the product, and the fact that your customer base isn't exactly a wealthy lot, I still think some more time would be in order. If you had announced this a year ago, and given us 12 months - I doubt you would have received this kind of reaction. While I'm still not thrilled that you've essentially changed the deal after my purchase (technical arguments to the contrary notwithstanding), it's mostly the suddenness of the move which has taken me aback. I REALLY want to do the upgrade. I just don't think I can do it within the next six months. Given the circumstances, I don't think 12 months is an unreasonable extension. So I'll ask straight out - would you consider extending the current upgrade offer to 12 months?

    Our sales departement will contact you.

    best

    Herb


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    @Mobius said:

    [quote=Marsdy]

    Apart from the fact that this VSL ad does say that the VIP offer will last a "lifetime", I also note that it uses the word "investment" (which some on this board have suggested is incorrect!).

     

    Contact Fred and not the rest of us?????

    Also, allow me to point out that Herb's response does conflict with the initial explanations that were offered regarding this change, and further, I am sure we all sympathize with all the brainstorming and development that has gone into these fine instruments and engines, however, what about the work that we have put into generating the initial ā‚¬5000 in order to purchase the original product? And the other ā‚¬5000 to upgrade?... Is our work and money less important?

    And please read the poster! Since when crossgrading (because that is what we are talking about and that is what Herb implied) costs as much as buying the product from scratch?..

    Please answer Fred and myself here, or please advise me that your sales department will also get in touch with me.

    Thank you for your consideration,

    Sincerely,

    Errikos. 


  • For the record...I was asking for all of us, not just myself.

  • Herb and all at VSL,

    I was an early adopter. First edition. Made the big upgrade to the Full Pro Edition.

    Love your libs and have been an evangelist for them.

    When the VIP agreement changed upon the release of the VI edition my impression of VSL soured a great deal. Over time this impressioned softened and I decided to make the move the VI edition once things looked stable on the latest mac-intels. Understandably it took VSL time to fully realize the VI on the mac platform and it seems to be "there" at this point so I was planning out the expense involved in this upgrade only to stop by the forum a few days ago and see this thread.

    Needless to say I find the termination of my VIP upgrade options objectionable. I was counting on this upgrade path to the point that I acutally purchased horizon titles that I have not even installed or registered (time and HD space are personal issues), buying them mostly to avail myself of the upgrade discounts. Upgrade discounts that I will now lose in two and half months.

    I respectfully request VSL honor the original VIP upgrade path as it was promised when I purchased the Pro Edition and the Horizon titles as it will take more than two and half months for me have both the funds and time to purchase and install the new software.

    kind regards, Ed Hamilton

  • Herb, maybe we can consider it "water under the bridge" if you give us back 30% of our "investmnent"?


  • Herb, hopefully you're still watching here. I can see we're going to get nowhere with asking you to change your mind. I have to say I'm still not happy - the simple fact is that you have changed an agreement, and your posts here do contradict themselves in the reasoning you give.

    But to be pragmatic. I have a wife who has said I may use a credit card to take advantage of the upgrades now, but, since my trust is a little dented I have a couple of questions.

    1. As you resplit the collection into individual instruments are all the current large VIs going to continue to exist? For instance, if I get the whole symphonic cube now, and later want to add the Standard and Extended Appassionata Strings, is it going to turn out that you've actually dissolved them, and split the strings completely differently. Will I have to buy an individual violins library that contains the Appassionata violins, but also forces me to re-buy the violin articulations I already have, and then an individual viola library, etc? Will I still be able to buy the special brass, or will I have to rebuy each instrument to get the additional articulations for that instrument?

    2. As I understand it, the large VI collections contain all the articulations currently available, and the SE are smaller subsets. Now that you seem to be focussing on the SE customers, are you going to add articulations to the SE that aren't in the larger collections, so that we again have to buy some overlapping content to get at everything?

    Thanks

    David


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    @magates said:

    Herb, maybe we can consider it "water under the bridge" if you give us back 30% of our "investmnent"?

    Hmm, Matt may be onto something here.  What if a blanket upgrade coupon were issued to existing first edition, pro edition, and horizon VIP owners who can't take advantage of the upgrade program before the deadline.  Something simple like - receive discounts up to a maximum of 30% of your original purchase price when you upgrade, but no more than 20% per product.  Something universal, that is simple to track, but does not have to be re-calculated, changed, and massaged as the product line evolves.  It's constant, simple, and will expire once upgrade discounts total 30% of the customers purchase price (which will help to avoid conflicts with new upgrade paths).  Of course the numbers are completely fictional, but I think the idea is clear.


  • I'd go a step further and replace the existing and future VIP program with something like the following:

    Level 1 discount: Anyone who has purchased the VI SE or two or more VIs or Horizon series products gets 10% off all future purchases

    Level 2 discount: Anyone who has purchased 5 or more VIs or Horizon series products gets 20% off all future purchases

    Level 3 discount: Anyone who has purchased 10 or more VIs or the Pro edition gets 30% off all future purchases

    Applies to all existing and future customers for any product sold by VSL. 


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    @Pingu said:

    Herb, hopefully you're still watching here. I can see we're going to get nowhere with asking you to change your mind. I have to say I'm still not happy - the simple fact is that you have changed an agreement, and your posts here do contradict themselves in the reasoning you give.

    But to be pragmatic. I have a wife who has said I may use a credit card to take advantage of the upgrades now, but, since my trust is a little dented I have a couple of questions.

    1. As you resplit the collection into individual instruments are all the current large VIs going to continue to exist? For instance, if I get the whole symphonic cube now, and later want to add the Standard and Extended Appassionata Strings, is it going to turn out that you've actually dissolved them, and split the strings completely differently. Will I have to buy an individual violins library that contains the Appassionata violins, but also forces me to re-buy the violin articulations I already have, and then an individual viola library, etc? Will I still be able to buy the special brass, or will I have to rebuy each instrument to get the additional articulations for that instrument?

    2. As I understand it, the large VI collections contain all the articulations currently available, and the SE are smaller subsets. Now that you seem to be focussing on the SE customers, are you going to add articulations to the SE that aren't in the larger collections, so that we again have to buy some overlapping content to get at everything?

    Thanks

    David

    1) All large collections will continue to exist.

    New DVD collections will be added, like the Chambers Strings II.

    2) We will not offer exclusively articulations for smaller subsets.

    There will be completely new download instruments, which are not part of any DVD collections, like our Upright Bass.

    But here you won't have any overlapping content problems.

    Generally we will avoid to repackage our sample content, the datasize and therefore the mastering costs are astronomical in the meantime.

    best

    Herb


  • 1) Fred Story, I know you were making a general enquiry, I was surprised that Herb wished to take the matter privately since we are all on similar boats here,

    2) Matt Gates' idea is probably what VSL should have come up with in the first, or at least second place. I have to add my impressions however (to include Fred's suggestion):

               a) Pro Edition COP customers keep their full 50% discount for 12 months since the first announcement of the demise of VIP a few days ago, and from then on to drop to a permanent 30%,

               b) the rest of the discounts as previously suggested...

    3) There is still time for VSL to withdraw this recent ultimatum and consider a solution to their problem - whatever it may really be - which will be concordant with their hitherto projected paradigm.

    Good luck everyone,

    Errikos. 


  •  Herb:

    Thanks very much for participating actively and being forthcoming in this discussion. It seems likely that there will be no perfect solution, but listening to each other and working towards a compromise is very constructive.