I am afraid the RTAS version of the instruments is almost unusable on my computer (Mac G5 quad with 6 GB RAM, OSX 10.4.8, PT 7.4). A session which ran perfectly well without these RTAS instruments now with 4 instruments each on one instrument stereo track and with each only minimal loaded samples (about 20-40 Mb) refuses to open and hangs. First notification about loading samples, then a very quick flashy and almost immediately vanishing red notification that some samples cannot be found although it worked perfect at first and they were installed exactly as they should have been and then the hang on the restoration of one of the tracks. I have been at it for hours now and it may very well be that this session is lost and I have to go back to an old backup. Very disappointed! Also the RTAS is not a real RTAS it seems but just a shell like the VST-RTAS adapter. Has that got something to do with it?
Any help from anyone, (Vienna?) greatly appreciated, because this is a really bad situation.
Best regards, Bob.
-
Fatal RTAS problems in PT
-
Hi Bob,
The RTAS version works just fine on my system (MacPro 2.66 quad, 3Gb RAM, 3xSATA HD: one for system, one for PT audio and one for VI samples) but the main difference I can see is that I'm still using PT7.3. I can easily load 12-16 VI instances in a session with a number of audio tracks and in a VI-only session I got up to around 20 (a couple more using VE) before things even started to get sluggish. It's not a wrapper, as far as I understand, the "shell" (i.e. the VSL server) is the same for the Audio Units version, it's just the way they've implemented VI on the Mac.
Given the thing about "samples not found" I'd suggest you run the Directory Manager utility and rescan for your samples. You don't say where you're storing them. The best way (is to have a separate internal SATA HD for your VI samples. I assume you've already repaired permissions and obvious things like that.
I'd certainly start by running the Directory Manager and making sure all your samples are recognised. It could be as simple as that (though no promises, obviously!)
Feel free to post any more info (or e-mail me).
Regards
Nick
Mac Mini M2 16Gb RAM 500Gb int. SSD 2Tb ext. SSD Pro Tools/Mixbus An awful lot of VI, Synchron-ised and Synchron libraries, amongst others. VSL user since 2003. -
Hi Nick, Thank you kindly for your reply. Yes, I know the drill and had already done all the usual "problem solving" stuff, including running the Directory Manager. On that front all was well. I have 2 SATA disks, one for the system and the other for PT audio. My samples come from 2 Lacie firewire disks. I may have accidentally stumbled on something though. I have several extra, usually not-connected firewire disks for backup purposes. When the problems occured, one of those was connected. That made 3 firewire disks in total. Today, having finished with the backups, I disconnected that 3rd disk and, surprise, I could again open the problematic session. Come to think of it I once had a similar problem with Ivory, where the simple presence of a 3rd firewire disk made it give various playback errors. I do not know at the moment if this really was the problem, I sure hope so because then it actually is not a real problem. Best regards, Bob.
-
Hi Bob,
Well, Christian (Marin) is the bloke to talk to about stuff like this but I know he doesn't recommend FW disks for samples because it was on his recommendation that I added a third SATA HD just to hold samples a while back, I now use a FW one only for backups at the end of each session. My guess - only a guess, mind - is that Directory Manager was having trouble distinguishing between your different FW disks. As I'm not a VSL member of staff I'm not privy to how it all works but they certainly do recommend keeping VI samples on an internal disk and they generally have good reasons for their recommendations. Of course it is possible to run from FW - I did so for quite a while and hit no real problems. But since going down the SATA route there's been a definite improvement in things like sample load times and overall performance.
So if I were you I'd add a third SATA HD and keep your samples there. They're pretty cheap nowadays: I paid around £120 for a 750Gb Seagate a few weeks ago and if you're in the US then it's probably a lot cheaper. You'll get better streaming performance from SATA than from FW.
Either way it does sound as though that was the problem and, assuming it is, I'm glad it's one with a fairly simple solution.
Anything to add Christian? Come on, I know you're out there... [:)]
Nick
Mac Mini M2 16Gb RAM 500Gb int. SSD 2Tb ext. SSD Pro Tools/Mixbus An awful lot of VI, Synchron-ised and Synchron libraries, amongst others. VSL user since 2003. -
Hi all, Well, I may have spoken just a bit too soon as far as the full solution to the problem goes. I encountered a failure to load once again. However, this time closing PT and re-opening it, it then went OK. Also, the split-second warning was just that little bit slower this time so that I could see the words "custom data", but that is all I could see. Does that help solving the mistery a bit? The fact that the situation is greatly improved by removing one firewire drive together with Nick's comments certainly points in the direction of the firewire drives. I will soon be switching to a Mac Pro, as soon as Spectrasonics have "really" solved the problem with the universal binary for Trilogy and Atmosphere, so in the meantime I guess I'll just have to sweat it out for a while. When I switch I will definitely go the SATA way for samples too. Thanks again, look forward to hearing what "cm" has to say. Best regards, Bob.
-
-
@nick.halliwell said:
Anything to add Christian? Come on, I know you're out there...
hey guys, sometimes i go out for a beer ot two and unfortunately this time it has been one of those cosy pubs ("gmiadliches beisl") which unfortunately (or better fortunately) don't have internet ... 😉
RTAS on the G5 ... uhhh, must have slipped through my fingers, i thought it has been released for intel only ...
to be honest: i don't believe RTAS on PPC will ever get to a state of reasonable performance (as far it relates to VI or a VSTtoRTAS wrapper) and though many PT users are in certain way stuck to their PPC hardware this doesn't have a future sooner or later.
second side of the problem (firewire) ... well, basically not too bad, but miles away from sATA ... 2 FW-disks = double load 3 FW-disks = tripple load (for CPU and bus) and: you didn't mention if it is possibly a PT system with a FW-audio device (this would be the worst coincidence)
sidenote: what can happen i had to notice yestrday - a seagate sATA 1TB in a FW enclosure (macpower oxford chip) gave me - you won't believe - 14 MB/s (PC) and 4,7 MB/s (!!!) on a macPro .... dammned ... the same disk delivers 72 MB/s directly attached to sATA. admttedly this is far the worst performance i have ever seen since 1995 or even earlier with ATA 1 IDE drives.
if you have to stay on the PPC for some reason and have the chance to outsource the sampling to another machine i would do that, because i fear actually streamlining everything you won't get too far on the G5 ....
christian
and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds. -
i forgot: there is no correlation between Directory Manager and firewire regarding indexing the content - volume remains volume.
just make sure your energy settings are selected as *never allow this drive to sleep* what could cause problems.
and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds. -
Hello cm, Thank you for getting back to me on this. I have had good experience with my vsl libraries (symphonic pro edition) and with the help and support I got so far, so I do not want to make a big thing out of this, but I need to point out the email below which was sent out by your company. I know a lot of people who would scream murder at your comments concerning the functionality of the vienna instruments on a PPC. The email below (I only copied the relevant part) was sent out October 9, 2007, and it is based on the information therein that I bought the special edition. Best regards, Bob. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Für den deutschen Newsletter bitte hier klicken! Dear Vienna Subscriber, Vienna Goes RTAS OS X! The new Vienna Instruments update 1.12 finally supports RTAS under OS X (Intel/PPC) and can be downloaded in your User Area! Minimum Requirements: Apple Mac PPC 2.0 Dual 1 GB RAM (2 GB recommended) ViennaKey Depending on the hardware of your Pro Tools system you can expect the following performance: Apple Mac PPC 2.0 Dual OS X 10.4.10 4 - 6 GB RAM / Pro Tools 7.3.1 with Mbox Hard Drive: FW 800 LaCie 300, 7200 rpm Performance: 4 - 6 Vienna Instruments instances Apple Mac Pro 2x 2.66GHz Dual Core Intel Xeon OS X 10.4.10 6 - 8 GB RAM / Pro Tools 7.3.1 with Mbox Hard Drive: SATA 750 GB, 7.200 rpm Performance: 20 - 26 Vienna Instruments instances Further bugfixes Vienna Instruments 1.12: Pedal usage in legato mode fixed Maintenance core updates Now online: Vienna Special Edition Training Videos Have fun! Best wishes from Vienna , Your Vienna Symphonic Library Team www.vsl.co.at
-
the personal milage might vary, but i for myself do not consider 4-6 instances as *reasonable performance*, though of course it is nice to have at least a few instruments running directly on the host, but this is how to read *you don't get too far* above
christian
and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds. -
Hi Songman,
I already asked you this in one of my mails:
What happens when you create a new and empty Pro Tools session without any audio files or other plug-in´s? Please try to load only a small patch into VI. Does that work? Does Vienna Instruments Standalone work (set to "built in Audio")?
The above performance details are the result of tests on a "freshly installed" Mac PPC and no other plug-in´s were loaded in that Pro Tools session and there were no audio files.
Best, Maya
-
Hello Maya, Thanks for getting back to me on this, it had slipped my attention. As a matter of fact it works just fine when you are building a session. I have not gone above 4 separate stereo tracks, each with an instrument on it with a very simple patch (about 20-60 Mb each) on a real session. Also with a new session without any other instruments or audio I was able without any problem to create 8 stereo tracks and have them play quite loaded and dense midi without problems. The only problem I have is recalling a complete real session with many audio, aux, instrument tracks. Then sometimes this error -which I still have not been able to fully read - pops up and PT hangs. It is better now that I have removed a 3rd firewire drive though. By the way, my audio does not come from a firewire drive but from a second internal SATA, the firewire drive only have samples. Thanks, cheers, Bob.
-
Hi Bob,
It's me again. Sorry, I'm still reeling from the revelation that Christian "goes out occasionally". [:)]
Another thing to look at - if you haven't already - is your Playback setup in PT. Each VI instance is stereo so it uses 2 RTAS voices. If you're also using lots of RTAS plug-ins in your sessions then this can also be a factor. Another thing is whether you're using any other instruments which are streaming samples or data from your FW drives.
Bottom line, though, is that you'll get far, far better performance on a MacPro with 3 SATA drives. I suspect I'm working similarly to yourself in that I also have a number of audio tracks and things running alongside a number of VI (or VE) instances. A lot of the people on this forum are, I suspect, essentially composers, so they're working primarily with MIDI sequencing of VIs. But then PT is much more of an audio-focussed app, of course: anyone working primarily with MIDI is going to better off with Logic, Cubase, etc. or one of the notation packages. Personally I prefer PT precisely because of its audio features and the beautiful simplicity of the Edit/Mix window paradigm.
As I say, with a MacPro quad 2.66 and 3xSATA, one for each basic task, I'm getting excellent performance. It's worth planning things a bit - when tracking I try to use TDM versions of plug-ins as far as possible because at that point my audio track count is fairly low (maybe 12-16 typically) so that way I can reserve as many of the RTAS resources as possible for my VI instances.
Anyway, as we do seem to be working fairly similarly, feel free to contact me again to compare notes.
Nick
Mac Mini M2 16Gb RAM 500Gb int. SSD 2Tb ext. SSD Pro Tools/Mixbus An awful lot of VI, Synchron-ised and Synchron libraries, amongst others. VSL user since 2003. -
Hi Nick, Thanks again for getting back to me on this this. I couldn't agree with you more concerning the simplicity and beauty of PT. I started off years ago with Logic and never felt happy with it. I really do not care for the considerably greater midi power either, PT is quite OK for me. Of course there are some things that could be improved but nothing dramatic as far as my way of working is concerned. As far as RTAS load is concerned, nothing too drastic in that department. I run on two processors, almost all plugins are TDM and I never have more than about 4-5 RTAS instruments running. The meter also never goes above the 35-40% mark. Now with regard to the Vienna instrument. Actually it is working very well, even with my PPC Quad, once the session is opened, so it is not so much the actual operation of the plugin or that it would be overloading my system. The only problem I have encountered, and which when I still had that 3rd firewire drive was really crippling, was the re-opening of a session. Now just today I had the problem again, just once, and the error message stayed long enough to be able to read the first line which said: "custom data folder inaccessible". That folder (empty) was in my home directory. I now moved it to the same location as the Vienna samples on the firewire disk and ran the directory tool to make clear where everything was. I'll see how that goes. Cheers, Bob
