As I said: I agree, that it´s impossible to have a tightly centered sound. But did you really listen to my example? http://www.hohes-b.de/VI_solo.mp3 The pannig difference between the first two notes is accaptable. But I don´t think I´m exaggerating by saying "The legato sounds like two different players!" And the fact, that I just recognize that in perf-gliss or legato patches, tells me, it´s rather an editing than an accoustic problem.

I don´t think the that the string causes the panning. Specially when other or same notes of that string are moving to the right, whenever they are connected to other notes. No matter if you play a legato up or downwards, the second note is panned very right. Sounds pretty much like an editing not a natural accoustical problem in the case of the solo violin. Anyway. Even though I gave up my hopes of VSL fixing that, thanks for taking the time to discuss this.

Felix,

From what I understand of VSL's approach to recording their solo instruments, they're not necessarily going for the peak of "realism" with the original recordings at full stereo width, but are rather trying to capture as much stereo information as possible; to have a really robust stereo file, as a sort of starting-point. So the recordings, at full stereo width, will probably always sound overly "wide", and will reveal these sorts of problems more than one might expect. I don't know the details of how the instruments are mic'ed, but I'd imagine Dietz is actually understating it a bit when he says "the front row" - I'd imagine the recorded stereo position would be more like sitting somewhere on the stage! Also, you have to keep in mind that, if you intend to do any imaging of the instruments at all - even for a chamber ensemble - you will still have to narrow the stereo width, as it is certainly impossible for you to be sitting directly in front of _all_ the players in the group. You might be sitting in front of one of them, but the others will invariably be off to the sides.

With the above in mind, however, I do understand your frustration. But I don't think the effect you're experiencing is necessarily related to the stereo width or positioning of any individual sample in the library. I think this is an effect of the Frankenstein-like nature of any sample-playback system. What you are hearing are subtle psychoacoustic effects which are completely natural in _any_ real space, with any real performer, but you're hearing them _without_ the continuity of a live performance. In a live performance, if the musician leans forward slightly, or turns slightly to the side, there is an acoustic continuity to that event, which your ears pick up and adapt to in an entirely natural way. The sound is changing, and the panning effects of the space are reflecting this change, but that change is completely continuous - it never "jumps", because it is part of a physically continuous event. Additionally, everything else you're hearing in that space - the audience, your neighbours, your own breathing - are also continuous, and constantly informing your perception of spatial cues. In a sampled performance, on the other hand, the changes between every sample are abrupt, and that is what is jarring to your ears... (or perhaps I should say, to you mind!)

I have also noticed that this has a great deal to do with the natural decay of the instrument. In the legato instruments, by virtue of the way their recorded, you hear _much_ more of the natural sound of the instrument itself, particularly in terms of decay. Therefor, it's really important to pick your samples and articulations carefully, if you're working on a final output mix. I'm getting into the habit of using performance articulations as much as possible, as these tend to contain the maximum of "real" performance information (transitions, decays), and I also make sure any short note samples (staccato, portato) are allowed to decay fully (that is, either turn up the decay, or lengthen the note in your track). In my experience, this helps to unify the samples of the instrument, somewhat ironically, by allowing the natural panning effects of all the articulations to speak a little more clearly.

Finally, I have to concur with DG on the absolute best solution: narrow the stereo pan, and apply a "small" convolution reverb. This will help localize the sound in your mix, even if you're shooting for an intimate chamber ensemble. In fact, I've just been playing around with the Violin Solo Perf-Legato, hosted in the Vienna Ensemble (which has VERY good control of stereo width and position, btw). I narrowed the width to about 1/4 of full, and added a tiny bit of "small room" reverb and, like DG says, I honestly don't notice the panning effects. And it is certainly not a cavernous, reverberant kind of sound. Adequately intimate, for sure.

Keep in mind, also, that a small chamber group is something like a Turing test for sample libraries, and I don't know of a library that has really passed! You can do **extremely** well with VSL. But a groups of 4 or 5 talented musicians, sat in a room playing your music, will not be replicated by a computer any time soon, IMHO! ;-)

J.

I hope I´ll handle that problem, even though it does not really work too good with the HO-4_per-gliss, specially when they are playing solo and with my mixing abilities. Anyway! Maybe the problem for me is more about paying quite a lot for a sample library. while according to Dietz VSL is knowing and accepting a bug like this one, telling it is no bug or leaving the fixing to the users. Once again: I love the work of VSL and apreciate, that they allow discussions like this one - unlike others. But in this special case I have to say, it is a philosophy, I don´t like.

Hi J., we just wrote our comments parallel. So I read yours just yet. Since I don´t want to say wrong thinks about VSL and I called the panning problem in the VI-perf-legato (solo) a bug. Play some notes above C5 legato (e.g. C5-D5, D5-E5, E5-D5...) Do you really consider the fade to the right on every legato - no matter in which direction - as a natural problem?!? Maybe there´s something wrong with my ears, but to me it sounds like the legato is more than 5 m fading to the right.

Sorry, Felix - which instrument? You mean the HO-4_perf-legato [EDIT - sorry, perf-gliss]? I was just playing with that, with a narrowed pan (dry), and I don't hear a huge problem. Just in case, I also tried it with the Violin Solo, and again I don't hear a major issue. But keep in mind that I'm using the Vienna Ensemble, with its panner set to around a 15% width for violin solo, and about a 25% width for the 4 horns. It really shouldn't be much wider than that, IMO. Maybe someone could correct me, if I'm wrong about that. But if I imagine myself in an actual performance space, it doesn't make sense, to me, for the stereo width to be much wider - not even for a small venue. I mean, if I'm about 2 feet away, maybe, but I can't recall listening to a performance at that distance, so I'm no judge! ;-)

J.

Actually... I could use some confirmation on this. (Dietz?)

I tend to make a mental triangle from my ears to the instrument. I then set the width to try to "cover" the space occupied by the instrument. This changes, depending how large the space is supposed to be - how far away I want to be - but it never makes for a very large width. Keep in mind that, because of the wide stereo recording, you're not losing any stereo information if you use a proper panner, like that in the VE. So it's not as though a narrow width is cheating you out of anything your ears would normally pick up.

To my ears, setting the stereo width to full just makes me feel like I must have an absolutely **massive** head! With ears about 6 feet apart! ;-)

J.

I wish I could check it, but unfortuneatly I don´t get Logic running, cause it crashes, when trying to open VE. But that belongs to other threads. I´ll let you know, as soon as I get Logic running.

Problem fixed for the moment. I have to admit, that the problem is not a real problem on most instruments, when using the VE stereo width. So sorry for making such a big deal of it. There remains this one patch, where the width does not help sufficently: This HO_perf-gliss example has a range of about 25 %. Sounds quite weird to me. Any sugestions on other settings? http://www.hohes-b.de/HO-perf-gliss.mp3

Hey Felix,

I do think I know what you mean about the HO-4_perf-gliss, but I'm pretty sure it's timing-related. You're hearing spatialization issues because the timing of the glisses is not absolutely identical between the 4 players (in addition to the acoustic effects discussed above). As a result, during the gliss, the image bounces around a bit. But to me that just makes it sound more realistic, as this sort of thing is bound to happen with any tutti section. But of course, it's almost impossible for me to know what you're hearing, so I'm just guessing... ;-)

cheers,

J.

Maybe the problem is my monitors? I hear the image bouncing to the right rather after the gliss. Actually I just realized, that every bouncing "problem" if have with some legato patches is always sound moving to the right, never to the left - no matter in which direction the legato/gliss is played. Do you hear the same or could my left monitor have a problem?

Ah! You know, that's kind of interesting, because I noticed this "bouncing off to the right", in some cases, when I was experimenting with it last night (I'm not "up and running", at the moment). But it didn't really put me off... In fact, quite the opposite. If I closed my eyes, and tried to really imagine the players in front of me, it was alarmingly convincing. It seems to me that I noticed it more at specific pitches, so I just figured it was the acoustic effect we've been talking about. Do you notice it at all pitch ranges? Also, how wide (roughly) are you setting your stereo width?

I know this is going to sound terrible, but maybe you just need to leave it for a bit. You may be getting kind of obsessed with hearing it, and thus fine-tuning your ears to picking it up. The fact that this "bouncing to the right" happens repeatedly with the HO-4 could just as easily be proof that the effect is, in fact, acoustic, since the acoustic characteristics of the horn, combined with those of the room, would obviously be totally consistent (and thus always "bounce" to the right, as the sound decays).
As a little tangent to our conversation, I have a mild tinnitus, which I perceive in my right ear. If I suddenly "notice" it, it gets appreciably louder, in a kind of "ramp" - like I'm sliding up a fader. If I forget about it, I literally don't hear it anymore. I can even control its level, to some degree, if I really concentrate. I did some research into it, one day, and found that nobody really knows what it is, but that most researchers today feel it to be primarily psychological (or, perhaps more accurately, neurophsyiological) - and they don't generally link it to hearing loss, as they did once upon a time. It's mostly linked with fatigue, stress, and caffeine, these days. All of which would generally apply, in my case! ;-)

So, as glib as it sounds, I'd honestly recommend just narrowing your pan a bit, and leaving it, for the time being. I don't think it's your speakers, though it could be your room (not likely). But, for what it's worth, I do also hear this "bouncing to the right"... it's just that it doesn't really bother me. Rather, it makes me feel like I'm actually sat in the "Silent Stage" with them!

cheers,

J.

Maybe this psychological aspect could be my solution. Since I often tend to choose wrong volume levels, as soon as I concentrate on special instruments and think they are too loud, this might be a similar problem. Concerning the pitches, the problem occours in higher ranges, which on one hand speaks for this naturel effect. On the other hand, I still don´t understand, why it only happens on legato patches and always bounces to the right, even when the jumping note is a lower one. I´m trying to empty my brain now!