Hi J., we just wrote our comments parallel. So I read yours just yet. Since I don´t want to say wrong thinks about VSL and I called the panning problem in the VI-perf-legato (solo) a bug. Play some notes above C5 legato (e.g. C5-D5, D5-E5, E5-D5...) Do you really consider the fade to the right on every legato - no matter in which direction - as a natural problem?!? Maybe there´s something wrong with my ears, but to me it sounds like the legato is more than 5 m fading to the right.

Sorry, Felix - which instrument? You mean the HO-4_perf-legato [EDIT - sorry, perf-gliss]? I was just playing with that, with a narrowed pan (dry), and I don't hear a huge problem. Just in case, I also tried it with the Violin Solo, and again I don't hear a major issue. But keep in mind that I'm using the Vienna Ensemble, with its panner set to around a 15% width for violin solo, and about a 25% width for the 4 horns. It really shouldn't be much wider than that, IMO. Maybe someone could correct me, if I'm wrong about that. But if I imagine myself in an actual performance space, it doesn't make sense, to me, for the stereo width to be much wider - not even for a small venue. I mean, if I'm about 2 feet away, maybe, but I can't recall listening to a performance at that distance, so I'm no judge! ;-)

J.

Actually... I could use some confirmation on this. (Dietz?)

I tend to make a mental triangle from my ears to the instrument. I then set the width to try to "cover" the space occupied by the instrument. This changes, depending how large the space is supposed to be - how far away I want to be - but it never makes for a very large width. Keep in mind that, because of the wide stereo recording, you're not losing any stereo information if you use a proper panner, like that in the VE. So it's not as though a narrow width is cheating you out of anything your ears would normally pick up.

To my ears, setting the stereo width to full just makes me feel like I must have an absolutely **massive** head! With ears about 6 feet apart! ;-)

J.

I wish I could check it, but unfortuneatly I don´t get Logic running, cause it crashes, when trying to open VE. But that belongs to other threads. I´ll let you know, as soon as I get Logic running.

Problem fixed for the moment. I have to admit, that the problem is not a real problem on most instruments, when using the VE stereo width. So sorry for making such a big deal of it. There remains this one patch, where the width does not help sufficently: This HO_perf-gliss example has a range of about 25 %. Sounds quite weird to me. Any sugestions on other settings? http://www.hohes-b.de/HO-perf-gliss.mp3

Hey Felix,

I do think I know what you mean about the HO-4_perf-gliss, but I'm pretty sure it's timing-related. You're hearing spatialization issues because the timing of the glisses is not absolutely identical between the 4 players (in addition to the acoustic effects discussed above). As a result, during the gliss, the image bounces around a bit. But to me that just makes it sound more realistic, as this sort of thing is bound to happen with any tutti section. But of course, it's almost impossible for me to know what you're hearing, so I'm just guessing... ;-)

cheers,

J.

Maybe the problem is my monitors? I hear the image bouncing to the right rather after the gliss. Actually I just realized, that every bouncing "problem" if have with some legato patches is always sound moving to the right, never to the left - no matter in which direction the legato/gliss is played. Do you hear the same or could my left monitor have a problem?

Ah! You know, that's kind of interesting, because I noticed this "bouncing off to the right", in some cases, when I was experimenting with it last night (I'm not "up and running", at the moment). But it didn't really put me off... In fact, quite the opposite. If I closed my eyes, and tried to really imagine the players in front of me, it was alarmingly convincing. It seems to me that I noticed it more at specific pitches, so I just figured it was the acoustic effect we've been talking about. Do you notice it at all pitch ranges? Also, how wide (roughly) are you setting your stereo width?

I know this is going to sound terrible, but maybe you just need to leave it for a bit. You may be getting kind of obsessed with hearing it, and thus fine-tuning your ears to picking it up. The fact that this "bouncing to the right" happens repeatedly with the HO-4 could just as easily be proof that the effect is, in fact, acoustic, since the acoustic characteristics of the horn, combined with those of the room, would obviously be totally consistent (and thus always "bounce" to the right, as the sound decays).
As a little tangent to our conversation, I have a mild tinnitus, which I perceive in my right ear. If I suddenly "notice" it, it gets appreciably louder, in a kind of "ramp" - like I'm sliding up a fader. If I forget about it, I literally don't hear it anymore. I can even control its level, to some degree, if I really concentrate. I did some research into it, one day, and found that nobody really knows what it is, but that most researchers today feel it to be primarily psychological (or, perhaps more accurately, neurophsyiological) - and they don't generally link it to hearing loss, as they did once upon a time. It's mostly linked with fatigue, stress, and caffeine, these days. All of which would generally apply, in my case! ;-)

So, as glib as it sounds, I'd honestly recommend just narrowing your pan a bit, and leaving it, for the time being. I don't think it's your speakers, though it could be your room (not likely). But, for what it's worth, I do also hear this "bouncing to the right"... it's just that it doesn't really bother me. Rather, it makes me feel like I'm actually sat in the "Silent Stage" with them!

cheers,

J.

Maybe this psychological aspect could be my solution. Since I often tend to choose wrong volume levels, as soon as I concentrate on special instruments and think they are too loud, this might be a similar problem. Concerning the pitches, the problem occours in higher ranges, which on one hand speaks for this naturel effect. On the other hand, I still don´t understand, why it only happens on legato patches and always bounces to the right, even when the jumping note is a lower one. I´m trying to empty my brain now!