@Christian Marcussen said:

Bastard [;)] ... like we aren't winded up enough! [:D]

No, not at all.

I shouldn't really say this and will probably get into trouble but since I'm very fond of you two lads.....

What happened was - I flew into Vienna a couple of days ago and just got back last night. I had a working lunch with Herb, Christian and Dietz. They called me in on a consultative basis - this is one of my expertise btw - and we all decided that the £7000 mark was the way to go.

All except for residents of Denmark and Scotland - the price has unfortunately been raised to 8000 sterling for you guys - whatever that is pfennigs - I don't know - but you could pretend to be from England I suppose - difficult though, with names like Christian and Irvin - bit of a giveaway. Anyway, I'll see what I can do.

Hope this helps.

My guess is that the price will be lower than most people here seem to anticipate. The orchestral sampling market is very crowded these days and most people can't afford $10000 libraries no matter how good they are. You can get a good orchestral library for $300 and a couple of excellent libraries for $2000 which wasn't the case when the VSL Pro Edition was released. My guess is that they lower the price of Pro Edition and give a somewhat affordable price tag for the new Cube. Now is the right time to lower the price of the PE as the PE users can be kept happy with a fair upgrade price to the Cube.

Or they give it a $10000 price tag. [8-)]

Did Denmark and Scotland qualify for the World Cup btw?

No?

Not to worry.

[:P]

[[:D]] [:P] [[:D]]

@PaulR said:

and we all decided that the £7000 mark was the way to go.

All except for residents of Denmark and Scotland - the price has unfortunately been raised to 8000 sterling for you guys

Ha ha ha, tres funny... [:D]

Still don't believe you, but if it is £7k it must be a spectacular product. Extremely spectacular indeed. If it's not, I don't see many people shelling out that kind of dosh. It's cheap for people who would otherwise hire orchestras, but very very expensive for home/project studio types. If you make your living from purely orchestral work, then it'll be worth it, but if not....

I know of one Hollywood composer (name withheld) who uses the competition's products because of the difficulty in using VSL, even though he (or she..?) owns both.

[/quote]I know of one Hollywood composer (name withheld) who uses the competition's products because of the difficulty in using VSL, even though he (or she..?) owns both.[/quote]

There's too much emphasis put on orchestral work these days. You don't want to worry yourself about what others say that they find easy or difficult. That's their problem right? They don't pay your mortgage or bills.

Remember, these things can eventually become bite sized chunks and you go for what you need. Look at Epic Horns for example. I agree that something might need to change with Repetition and Alternation because it is not built for speedy, intuitive writing for most of us - although some have no problems.

The biggest problem for writers today using sample libraries - and VSL is the the best out there, have no doubt - excluding things like Ra, Stormdrum, Stylus etc - is the string sound - make no mistake about it. There is not one library out there currently that can get that silky, soaring, resonant live string sound as yet. Sampled strings can sound just fine when 'out' of the mix - they get somehow distorted when in with the rest of everything else that's going on.

When that gets solved - it's an unfortunate step down the road for live ensembles - but we're years away from that, so you have to cope with what's available- including 3 days time.

It's difficult waiting for things when you're young. [:D] [:P]

I couldn't agree more on the strings - nothing reeks 'samples' more than when strings start to play (especially high pitched segments). Whoever comes up with the 'silky soaring sound' - in the context of a mix will make a lot of money. Here's to hoping that it will eventually be VSL [:D]


Rob

Isn't it possible that the "silky sound" is more of an acoustic effect of the room, and thus potentially solved by MIR? In which case, I'm guessing we're going to see VSL making "a lot of money" in 3 days! Mind you, considering what little we know about MIR, it wouldn't necessarily help with a "tutti" sampled string section, but would rather be better suited to a bunch of independently sampled solo instruments. Anyway, I'm sure VSL is probably thinking that MIR will be the closest and best solution to the "silky" issue...

J.

I agree that the strings, particularly the violins, are the hardest part of the sampled orchestra to get right. I'm not sure if getting new samples, plugging them in, and presto they're perfect, is going to happen. Not that new ones are unnecessary. I particularly feel that mp/mf espressivo dynamic - especially in legato - is a gap in anybody's current string representation. If VSL added portamento in a soft dynamic and an mp lyrical espressivo it would be the most signficant event in the history of mankind as everyone here knows.

But despite that, the violins are many intruments playing at once, and a sampled section is one (at a time). I am convinced this has something to do with it - a loss of the sense of multiple instruments in the samples. Also, the timbre is affected in the mix by the mere presence of other instruments, unlike a live orchestra, which if you have conducted or played in one, you always notice sounds richer and richer the more instruments play, and you can still feel the size and spaciousness of the strings. But with sampled strings, they sound thinner and thiner the more other instruments play. So this is a phenomenon of the mix, since if you listen to them straight out of the box with nothing else playing they sound fabulous. There is a third element and this is noticeable in the demos, many of which sound very rich and full: orchestration which uses the strings in a characteristic manner. If you score a thin little piano line for sampled violins it is going to sound like a thin little piano line for sampled violins. On doing the Vaughn Williams demo, I noticed that VW's scoring for the strings is so contrapuntal and full in how one group supports and accentuates another that it automatically made the strings sound much fuller. (I didn't have to do a thing for that - just play in the brilliant music and it happens instantly.) Though I also noticed some of the same thinness cropping up in the mix nevertheless which I tried to combat. Jay Bacall has probably done as much with this as anyone and could offer many suggestions. Perhaps another thread should address this.

O.K., sorry to go off topic.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THREE DAYS!!!! I CAN'T STAND IT ANY LONGER !!!!

@William said:

I agree that the strings, particularly the violins, are the hardest part of the sampled orchestra to get right. I'm not sure if getting new samples, plugging them in, and presto they're perfect, is going to happen. Not that new ones are unnecessary. I particularly feel that mp/mf espressivo dynamic - especially in legato - is a gap in anybody's current string representation.

This is something that I fully agree with. I find that there is too much of a timbral difference between f and p legato samples. Now that we have the Modwheel crossfade, it would be great to have a middle dynamic.

DG

PS, I've spent most of my life off topic, so I'm not going to change now [H]

Bill,

Well written, and i think you've hit the key in sample performance.

Orchestration.

We're used to hearing the classics in particular from the POV of 'standard' orchestration. (Generalisation) But that orchestration is a reflection of live instruments with individual interpretations of how the music should be played, no matter how fine the difference between one player and another in the same section. Listening to live recordings will always highlight a basoon player who is slightly sharp in intonation, or a clarinet player who interprets the first beat of a bar a fraction later than someone else, just to give two examples.
Yet in sample performance, it is the same player inputting each line or phrase, with their own interpretations of where 'one' is, or the mength of each note in a phrase.
We can play in 'live' each instrument of the orchestra, and the human element is apparent, with the exception of sections, notably strings. And string sections contain more subtle variations than any other section due to (a) the number of players, and (b) their interpretations.

If we were to be objective about sample performance, we would use a section player sample, and play the same line according to the number of players in the section. And i did say a section player sample, as opposed to a solo instrument, whose sampled sound is more expressive.

I think this is the important key to the question of sampled strings, and with experimentation could produce the effect we are all looking for, or at least closer to the real thing than we are now.
If i had a wish for the VSL team, it would be to record section string instruments in pairs, reflecting a different seating position. I would then play in the number of pairs required to fill a section. Some would think this was a lot more work, but the end result would require a lot less manipulation, so I think the balance would be maintained.

As for three days to go.............

Regards,

Alex.

Hey William!

This really is too much, isn't it! I can't bear it, even though I'm absolutely certain I'm not going to be able to come within missile-launch of affording it!!

My guess, judging by the "hype", is that this is a VSL-authored composition environment/performance tool. Personally, I don't necessarily even think this is MIR yet, but rather that it will "host" MIR, when MIR is ready for release. This would be a bit of slight-of-hand on VSL's part, but would also be a pretty clever way of keeping our focus on MIR, while cooking-up something considerably more "revolutionary" backstage. After all, as impressive as MIR sounds like it will be, it isn't necessarily completely "new", but is rather a better, and more detailed take on something that has existed for a few years now.

No, I'm going with Symphonic Cube and VSL-based "sequencer" -- though sequencer is not going to be the best word for it, I don't think... more like an integrated composition environment. There has been a GREAT deal of hinting going on, particularly in the Synful threads, about VSL's own efforts to match Synful's ease-of-use. If you think about it, the current Performance Tool is actually a very simplistic solution for such a complex library -- so my feeling is that the Performance Tool was just something to get us going, and get people using the library, while they put together their True Solution (Angelic chord -- brass and choir). The library is just too well-conceived for such a basic tool as the current one... There are so many ways that a better tool/environment could be made, and as I say, there's been some serious hinting going on about VSL's work in that direction. I only hope that the "tool" and the Symphonic Cube are not joined at the hip, and can be purchased separately for Toyota-drivers like me!


cheers,

J.

But will the vsl "sequencer" be PC only as well?

...you seem to be asking as though I actually _know_ anything! [;)]

But, unfortunately, yes... PC-only. This is me extrapolating a great deal from previous hints and posts, but there's been pretty strong indications (connected mostly to MIR) that the "next generation" is PC-only, with Mac possibly to follow. I can't see them simply abondoning the Mac, but I certainly can see them waiting for the smoke to clear around the whole Intel switch -- seeing how that all plays out is pretty wise for any developer (except, perhaps, for those deeply involved in Mac development: Adobe, Macromedia, etc.).

cheers,

J.

Good discussion about strings. It could also be the 'many many' variations of articulations or even variations of one articulations possible with strings.

Case in point. I did a quartet mock-up (Flute, Bassoon, viola, cello) that accompanies a real choir (for Christmas concert here in Utah). Had a rehearsal last night with just the instrumentalist. While the VSL Flute and Bassoon was NEARLY as good as the real thing (really very close) - the live cellist and violist put to shame my mock up. Putting slurs, portamentos, vibrato, dynamics, etc. in just the right spots.

Sure, I could have spent 8 more hours working on my mock up (If I even had that kind of time) but I would have still not gotten even close to the real deal. [:(]

Strings are really the backbone of the orchestra and I find myself too often 'writing to the samples' and 'tucking them in' - when all I want to do is let them soar!!!!

Let's see what VSL comes up with in a few days - I am sure it will get us closer - by how much, we shall see.


Rob

I remember the talk from some time ago about intelligent (notation based, but with the midi editing capacity of sequencers) score writing software being part of the ultimate plan of the whole VSL project - I have been waiting a long time for such a thing to come about (Finale is getting there, but its at a crawl for reasons which remain incomprehensible to me). The fact that the integration with the VSL sample set would be just about 100% (I would assume!) would be a grand thing indeed (though I would hope that it would also be possible to program other samples to be incorporated into the 'user library' as well, for us sample gluttons who simply can't have enough of the damned things [[;)]], and who even have home made sounds that we would wish to keep using).

@William said:

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THREE DAYS!!!! I CAN'T STAND IT ANY LONGER !!!!

The world will run out of oil, 666 will be the number of patches in the Cube, Bruce Willis won't come to save the human kind and I will go out for dinner with Jessica Rabbit.

[6]

VSL PE's estimated 380,000 samples should keep users occupied for a while, but the company have more in store. The Viennese expansionists are working on a hard-disk edition called the Symphonic Cube, due for release later this year. All samples will be included in both 24-bit and 16-bit resolution.
Supplying sound libraries on hard disk makes it easy to manufacture different versions, and VSL are currently considering a flexible, user-orientated system in which content and sample resolution could be defined individually by buyers. The following new instruments have been recorded for inclusion in the Symphonic Cube.

SOLO STRINGS
Solo viola.
Solo double bass.

SMALL STRING ENSEMBLES
Six violins.
Four violas.
Three cellos.
Two double basses.

WOODWINDS
Small clarinet in E flat.
French oboe (with vibrato).
English horn (with vibrato).

WOODWIND ENSEMBLES
Three flutes.
Three clarinets.
Three oboes.
Three bassoons.

SOLO BRASS
Solo brass with mutes.
Viennese French horn.
Double horn (a type of French horn).
Triple horn (another type of French horn).

BRASS ENSEMBLES
Ensemble brass with mutes.
Double horn ensemble (x8 ).

VSL's new budget Horizon series, which offers themed packages like Solo Strings, Mallets, and Glass & Stones, combines selected VSL Pro Edition material with new instruments such as tenor and soprano sax, concert acoustic guitar, glass harmonica, verrophone, musical glasses and distortion guitar. These new instruments will also be


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Why did I buy Chamber Strings ... doh!!!!

source: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar04/articles/vienna.htm#18

The article you post is ancient (from March 2004), and I think only confuses what is in store for us here (much of the 'new' instruments they reference - such as the solo and small string sections, were released as Horizon Products like Solo Strings and Chamber Strings). If you have enjoyed using Chamber Strings for the past months (as I have) why are you questioning your purchase of them?

Yes of course [:O]ops:

And there will be the VIP or not so I dont have to pay for my Samples twice!!! [:D]