@William said:

I agree that the strings, particularly the violins, are the hardest part of the sampled orchestra to get right. I'm not sure if getting new samples, plugging them in, and presto they're perfect, is going to happen. Not that new ones are unnecessary. I particularly feel that mp/mf espressivo dynamic - especially in legato - is a gap in anybody's current string representation.

This is something that I fully agree with. I find that there is too much of a timbral difference between f and p legato samples. Now that we have the Modwheel crossfade, it would be great to have a middle dynamic.

DG

PS, I've spent most of my life off topic, so I'm not going to change now [H]

Bill,

Well written, and i think you've hit the key in sample performance.

Orchestration.

We're used to hearing the classics in particular from the POV of 'standard' orchestration. (Generalisation) But that orchestration is a reflection of live instruments with individual interpretations of how the music should be played, no matter how fine the difference between one player and another in the same section. Listening to live recordings will always highlight a basoon player who is slightly sharp in intonation, or a clarinet player who interprets the first beat of a bar a fraction later than someone else, just to give two examples.
Yet in sample performance, it is the same player inputting each line or phrase, with their own interpretations of where 'one' is, or the mength of each note in a phrase.
We can play in 'live' each instrument of the orchestra, and the human element is apparent, with the exception of sections, notably strings. And string sections contain more subtle variations than any other section due to (a) the number of players, and (b) their interpretations.

If we were to be objective about sample performance, we would use a section player sample, and play the same line according to the number of players in the section. And i did say a section player sample, as opposed to a solo instrument, whose sampled sound is more expressive.

I think this is the important key to the question of sampled strings, and with experimentation could produce the effect we are all looking for, or at least closer to the real thing than we are now.
If i had a wish for the VSL team, it would be to record section string instruments in pairs, reflecting a different seating position. I would then play in the number of pairs required to fill a section. Some would think this was a lot more work, but the end result would require a lot less manipulation, so I think the balance would be maintained.

As for three days to go.............

Regards,

Alex.

Hey William!

This really is too much, isn't it! I can't bear it, even though I'm absolutely certain I'm not going to be able to come within missile-launch of affording it!!

My guess, judging by the "hype", is that this is a VSL-authored composition environment/performance tool. Personally, I don't necessarily even think this is MIR yet, but rather that it will "host" MIR, when MIR is ready for release. This would be a bit of slight-of-hand on VSL's part, but would also be a pretty clever way of keeping our focus on MIR, while cooking-up something considerably more "revolutionary" backstage. After all, as impressive as MIR sounds like it will be, it isn't necessarily completely "new", but is rather a better, and more detailed take on something that has existed for a few years now.

No, I'm going with Symphonic Cube and VSL-based "sequencer" -- though sequencer is not going to be the best word for it, I don't think... more like an integrated composition environment. There has been a GREAT deal of hinting going on, particularly in the Synful threads, about VSL's own efforts to match Synful's ease-of-use. If you think about it, the current Performance Tool is actually a very simplistic solution for such a complex library -- so my feeling is that the Performance Tool was just something to get us going, and get people using the library, while they put together their True Solution (Angelic chord -- brass and choir). The library is just too well-conceived for such a basic tool as the current one... There are so many ways that a better tool/environment could be made, and as I say, there's been some serious hinting going on about VSL's work in that direction. I only hope that the "tool" and the Symphonic Cube are not joined at the hip, and can be purchased separately for Toyota-drivers like me!


cheers,

J.

But will the vsl "sequencer" be PC only as well?

...you seem to be asking as though I actually _know_ anything! [;)]

But, unfortunately, yes... PC-only. This is me extrapolating a great deal from previous hints and posts, but there's been pretty strong indications (connected mostly to MIR) that the "next generation" is PC-only, with Mac possibly to follow. I can't see them simply abondoning the Mac, but I certainly can see them waiting for the smoke to clear around the whole Intel switch -- seeing how that all plays out is pretty wise for any developer (except, perhaps, for those deeply involved in Mac development: Adobe, Macromedia, etc.).

cheers,

J.

Good discussion about strings. It could also be the 'many many' variations of articulations or even variations of one articulations possible with strings.

Case in point. I did a quartet mock-up (Flute, Bassoon, viola, cello) that accompanies a real choir (for Christmas concert here in Utah). Had a rehearsal last night with just the instrumentalist. While the VSL Flute and Bassoon was NEARLY as good as the real thing (really very close) - the live cellist and violist put to shame my mock up. Putting slurs, portamentos, vibrato, dynamics, etc. in just the right spots.

Sure, I could have spent 8 more hours working on my mock up (If I even had that kind of time) but I would have still not gotten even close to the real deal. [:(]

Strings are really the backbone of the orchestra and I find myself too often 'writing to the samples' and 'tucking them in' - when all I want to do is let them soar!!!!

Let's see what VSL comes up with in a few days - I am sure it will get us closer - by how much, we shall see.


Rob

I remember the talk from some time ago about intelligent (notation based, but with the midi editing capacity of sequencers) score writing software being part of the ultimate plan of the whole VSL project - I have been waiting a long time for such a thing to come about (Finale is getting there, but its at a crawl for reasons which remain incomprehensible to me). The fact that the integration with the VSL sample set would be just about 100% (I would assume!) would be a grand thing indeed (though I would hope that it would also be possible to program other samples to be incorporated into the 'user library' as well, for us sample gluttons who simply can't have enough of the damned things [[;)]], and who even have home made sounds that we would wish to keep using).

@William said:

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THREE DAYS!!!! I CAN'T STAND IT ANY LONGER !!!!

The world will run out of oil, 666 will be the number of patches in the Cube, Bruce Willis won't come to save the human kind and I will go out for dinner with Jessica Rabbit.

[6]

VSL PE's estimated 380,000 samples should keep users occupied for a while, but the company have more in store. The Viennese expansionists are working on a hard-disk edition called the Symphonic Cube, due for release later this year. All samples will be included in both 24-bit and 16-bit resolution.
Supplying sound libraries on hard disk makes it easy to manufacture different versions, and VSL are currently considering a flexible, user-orientated system in which content and sample resolution could be defined individually by buyers. The following new instruments have been recorded for inclusion in the Symphonic Cube.

SOLO STRINGS
Solo viola.
Solo double bass.

SMALL STRING ENSEMBLES
Six violins.
Four violas.
Three cellos.
Two double basses.

WOODWINDS
Small clarinet in E flat.
French oboe (with vibrato).
English horn (with vibrato).

WOODWIND ENSEMBLES
Three flutes.
Three clarinets.
Three oboes.
Three bassoons.

SOLO BRASS
Solo brass with mutes.
Viennese French horn.
Double horn (a type of French horn).
Triple horn (another type of French horn).

BRASS ENSEMBLES
Ensemble brass with mutes.
Double horn ensemble (x8 ).

VSL's new budget Horizon series, which offers themed packages like Solo Strings, Mallets, and Glass & Stones, combines selected VSL Pro Edition material with new instruments such as tenor and soprano sax, concert acoustic guitar, glass harmonica, verrophone, musical glasses and distortion guitar. These new instruments will also be


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Why did I buy Chamber Strings ... doh!!!!

source: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar04/articles/vienna.htm#18

The article you post is ancient (from March 2004), and I think only confuses what is in store for us here (much of the 'new' instruments they reference - such as the solo and small string sections, were released as Horizon Products like Solo Strings and Chamber Strings). If you have enjoyed using Chamber Strings for the past months (as I have) why are you questioning your purchase of them?

Yes of course [:O]ops:

And there will be the VIP or not so I dont have to pay for my Samples twice!!! [:D]

I think the number "3 456" will be the number of coffee cup we will need to try all the new samples.

[:P]

I'm wondering just how different this will be it's predecessor; not necessarily how much a 'leap forward' or whatever, but just how.. different.

Quite frankly, I'm interested in how they will make it less technical and more creative instead of just all the samples. If there is some way that it is like Synful, I will be happy. Just more samples and that is all won't excite as much as how they innovate with their tools [;)]. Of course, if the Choir was included I would be happy [:D]

I'm expecting The Cube and MIR - If there is any kind of choir I will be genuinely suprised.

Soon it will be DAY 2... you with me Austin? [:)]

I join in the chorus of hope for VSL ease and intelligence.

But there is a caveat when we compare VSL to Synful. VSL needs sample RAM. Synful generates its own waves and takes up only 32 MB of RAM.

So it's fine to imagine a program sorting through MIDI data, interpreting the articulations and rendering them on our behalf, as Synful does. But in VSL, those articulations first need to be loaded. I can't imagine that changing, and it does bring my dreams back to Earth.

But the greater truth is, VSL is being assembled by musical minds. And I find great encouragement in that, whatever they present to us. I'm so impressed that they are re-engineering VSL to empower the composer *as he conceives of music,* not as technology forces him to think.

Sometimes in Logic, I get that "tail wags the dog" feeling. And I think VSL is working hard to avoid just that.

@Plowman said:

I join in the chorus of hope for VSL ease and intelligence.

But there is a caveat when we compare VSL to Synful. VSL needs sample RAM. Synful generates its own waves and takes up only 32 MB of RAM.

So it's fine to imagine a program sorting through MIDI data, interpreting the articulations and rendering them on our behalf, as Synful does. But in VSL, those articulations first need to be loaded. I can't imagine that changing, and it does bring my dreams back to Earth.

But the greater truth is, VSL is being assembled by musical minds. And I find great encouragement in that, whatever they present to us. I'm so impressed that they are re-engineering VSL to empower the composer *as he conceives of music,* not as technology forces him to think.

Sometimes in Logic, I get that "tail wags the dog" feeling. And I think VSL is working hard to avoid just that.

Nice post, Plowman. For as long as I've used Logic, I've never fallen in love with it. I would have avoided it altogether were it not for VSL.

I must say that if I've found this particular thread in any way entertaining, the VSL team must be thoroughly enjoying themselves while soaking in all the spec. Nothing like a mystery to get everyone chatting with vigor!

It will be most interesting to compare the long list of imaginatve feature requests on this thread with the actual package to appear soon-- and then to see which features suggested over the past few days will find its way in one incarnation or another to VSL in future updates.

Cheers!
JWL

2 days!

but the movie [and today's clue!] hasn't loaded yet.. [:(]

It's there. At first I didn't even realize that the "woodwinds, strings, brass, percussion" thingy is a clue. [:)] It must be pretty obvious what's coming. Can't wait to hear that how long I have to live poorly to be able to afford it. Not that I'm rich without it. [8-)]

I just noticed the number 10... What could that possibly be?