@William said:

Evans

I don't understand that originality means nothing in today's film scoring world?

Is that a joke?

To me this is the most basic fact of commercial film scoring. Sadly enough.

I'm telling you William. You are in a box. I told you before, you couldn't understand, and I see now why. You are in a box.

Try backing up OUT OF THE FILM SCORING WORLD. Then maybe you will begin to understand. Don't be so damn confined all the time. Is it so earth shattering to your ego and persona to think that everything you hold so dear may not matter much at all? Because that is what being the most powerful film composer is all about ... true, unbridled, unchained, weightless, free POV. That is what makes a good film composer great, and maybe the great film composers' masters. When one stops thinking about the damn music. That's the point of infinite power. And it's also the reason why my directors and film makers call me up to ask me about scenes to cut, and other production issues, because I am a true collaborator, with inputs and outputs that connect to everything in the film.

How good, ... how valuable, an asset do you think you could possibly be if all you do is provide the music for a particular movie? That is the pinnacle of the bottom my man. That is being only what is necessary. There are greater boundaries to be explored AND PUSHED.

I intend to push them. I don't intend to JUST write music. The art of cinema means more to me than being just a musical vehicle. I am a collaborator in a collaborative artform. I refuse to become a cog in a wheel, not because of my own ego, but because of the ego of the film itself. It doesn't ever deserve to have cogs in it's gears. Every film can transcend the norm. Every film.

Goldsmith was the last genius to understand this. The spice he added to certain films was barrier breaking at times. And at others was certainly the pinnacle of current possibilities.

Evan Evans

dcoscina,

Sorry also to be a bit harsh there in defending old Erich Wolfgang. I actually agree with a lot of your points. We had quite a discussion of Korngold a while back.

@William said:

dcoscina,

Sorry also to be a bit harsh there in defending old Erich Wolfgang. I actually agree with a lot of your points. We had quite a discussion of Korngold a while back.

Well, for once William, I am in total agreement with you! People tend to sneer and say (about Korngold's music) that "it just sounds like film music", forgetting that before some of the greats in the 30s and 40s there was no film music (in the way that we understand scoring today). Not only was Korngold a marvellous composer, but an incredible orchestrator, unlike most of the current crop of composers. However, one must remember that he was first and foremost a composer, and films came later.

DG

Mr. Evans

Your post is so arrogant and egocentric that it borders on the irrational. That is the only possible response to such nonsense.

@William said:

Your post is so arrogant and egocentric that it borders on the irrational. That is the only possible response to such nonsense.

Well, technically, claiming that your response is "the only possible response" is in itself arrogant and egocentric... [:D]

@William said:

Mr. Evans

Your post is so arrogant and egocentric that it borders on the irrational. That is the only possible response to such nonsense.

My post is a beacon of open mindedness. Your post previous to that was selfish and irresponsible. You said that professors are unsuccessful composers. You defended Herrmann by berating others. Your generalizations are irresponsible and typically berating. I won't stand for it.

Others are allowed to not share your viewpoints AND be right too. If you don't open your mind you can't understand that possiblity.

Evan Evans

@Glenn Morrissette said:

Well, technically, claiming that your response is "the only possible response" is in itself arrogant and egocentric.

Yeah, this is why I told him he couldn't understand. It requires one to step out of their box to understand. He's afraid of being open minded. And his response to my post "calling him out", was typical ego protection mechanism. The closer you get someone like that to breaking through their ego membrane, the more irrascible and inflammatory they become. They fight and claw at the walls. Eventually becoming animal. This is especially true if the breakthrough is based on a chemical dependancy. In some brains even "feeling protected" can be a strong chemical dependancy.

His response just outlines exactly what he is all about to me. I see right through it. While he is getting mad, angry, and defensive I am observing truer and truer truth, and becoming more grounded and centered and objective about him.

His next post, if he's as smart as he thinks he is, should be calm, collected, and objective. This is the best way for him to now protect his ego. However it will likely skirt, avoid, and try to justify through analogy his objective viewpoints.

But now that I've diffused that option, he may have no choice but to simply ignore these posts of mine. And move to being dismissive. This is the easiest way to avoid confronting his ego at this point.

We'll see. From an anthropomorphic perspective, I find William fascinating! [:D]

Probably will be easiest to just attack me and shift and redirect attention away from him. That would be a nice two pronged approach.

Evan Evans

Be careful with amateur psychoanalysis over internet, my friend.

..

William,

Do some research and find out who James Tenney actually is before you openly state that he has "no idea what he is talking about"... You could stand to be a little more discriminating in your evaluation of composers as "academics". Many professors of composition are not the brand of academics you despise at all (they may even hate such academics as much as you do), but are active composers, who spend the majority of their time composing, and who certainly *can* be first-rate composers. Anyone who *thinks* about music, in addition to composing it, is not necessarily an "academic", at least not in the derogatory sense that you use the word. Also, some true academics can be quite intelligent, and can occasionally reveal things that artists fail to see from their highly involved and "attached" position as creators.

Also, I'm sure you realize that the definition of "successful" you appear to be using can be applied equally to call-girls, accountants, and despots -- the ability to pay the rent does not always accompany the composition of great music. But I can't imagine that you don't understand that...


Evan,

You've stated, or perhaps just implied, that you support the old idea that "if you notice the score, it's a bad score" -- so how does that figure into your idea of film-making as a collaborative process, and of "pushing the boundaries"? Do you still think that's the case, or is there room for the score to step out from behind the story, or the scene, and actually challenge the audience to hear it -- at least on occasion? Personally, much of my experience is in collaboration as well, and I'm quite passionate about this subject. I think that film music has, for the most part, stagnated under the philosophy that it should invariably serve the story, and the story alone. But I wonder whether it's possible to move it out of the background delicately enough that it will be noticed, without throwing the whole work out of balance. I'm interested to hear everybody's thoughts on this, as I think it relates closely to this notion of "originalilty" in today's film music. That is to say that I think a great deal of the lack of originality in today's film music can be attributed to the constant effort to make a great racket without being noticed!

oh yeah, and I'm trying to figure out what the hell you mean, Evan, by "from an anthropomorphic perspective"... hurricane William? the wrath of William (aka Zeus)? The King of the pride had the fierceness of William. ...it's probably pretty interesting, whatever you're getting at...


J.

Heh - missed that anthropomorphic thing first time through.

Very funny jbm - heh... [:D]

JBM

I shouldn't imply all academics, no. Of course there are some good composers at universities, etc. I am simply speaking of a disease inherent in the highly conventional world of academia (and it is so, though it pretends to be unconventional by means of fashion statements like deconstructionism).

However I am enraged by that damnable attitude of this composer who was mentioned - I have seen it over and over again. This man cannot know anything of film music, and I will guarantee his basic attitude is something to the effect that "everyone knows Bartok is a great composer. This film music is just pop stuff. Psycho sounds like Bartok. Threfore Psycho is a little insipid knockoff of Bartok." Those are the implied assumptions, in order to arrive at such a conclusion. This despite the fact that it is becoming apparent that Herrmann may be a more signifcant composer of the 2oth century than Bartok. And I have seen remarkable ignorance of the basics of film composing AS AN ART in highly intelligent, extremely knowledgeable and talented musical academics. They are CLUELESS about film music (outside of L.A.) and can get away with this in their insular little world. So do not assume I am talking off the top of my head. I have had a lot of encounters with this attitude and it is endemic.

BTW I am not anthropomorphic at all. I am actually a glowing, sentient cloud of charged particles.

William,

This whole thing has gotten way out of hand. So what the heck do we do now? LOL.

Evan Evans

@PaulR said:

Evan, stop being a big sulking baby. What's the matter with you? If you don't agree with something, just state it and give reasons. That's fair, isn't it? Come on, take it easy.

LOL! ok. [;)]

Evan Evans

@Another User said:

oh yeah, and I'm trying to figure out what the hell you mean, Evan, by "from an anthropomorphic perspective"... hurricane William? the wrath of William (aka Zeus)? The King of the pride had the fierceness of William. ...it's probably pretty interesting, whatever you're getting at...

LOL. Funny you picked up on that line, because it was one of the more abstract things I said. I didn't really think anyone would notice that. I meant, that from a perspective of learning about a subject by observation ... William is fascinating. And I was drawing parallel to how zoologists study various species. It was somewhat sarcastic, but also a bit of a truth. I do find William's unique perspective's fascinating, and his unnatural behavior comfortably predictable.

Evan Evans

..

I know this has been discussed to death on the Film Score Monthly board, but why is it that Goldsmith fans have a tendency to slight Williams works? In my opinion, Williams might not be the innovator that GOldsmith or Herrmann is, but in terms of pure musical composition, the guy can write better than anyone working in the film industry. I always found Goldsmith's harmonic tapestry to be a bit overtly triadic. Williams, because of his jazz roots, employs more harmonic extensions and much more interesting modulations. Also, his grasp of chromatic leading tones and counterpoint far exceed the average Hollywood film composer these days- mostly because he still writes everything at a piano and in his head.

This leads me to the one danger of all this wonderful technology (and something Evan broached in a post on FSM): writing at a keyboard constrains one. It's very difficult to escape to idiomatic tendencies that oft accompany writing on a keyboard. A stringed or reed instrument behaves a lot differently in performance and the phrasing is totally endemic to those intruments. Obviously the fine folks at VSL have come closest to bridging the gap with their performance tool- the legato feature in particular just floors me. In some ways, the patches almost respond as if they were modelled and not sampled. Very clever. But I still hear loads of people who will play a flute line on a keyboard that sounds exactly like that: a guy playing a line from a keyboard with no idea how much air a flutist uses or how long he/she can hold a note. Same applies to brass although non-looped brass (like I use from Project SAM) help or almost force the composer who prefers using a keyboard to play in lines to think in terms of phrasing because the note won't go on forever.

Obviously, we're living in a time where there has been a huge democratisation in the area of composition. Back when I was studying music, I had to labour through ink conductor's scores (which were an additional pain in the ass because I'm left handed). There was no Finale or Sibelius where one could hit a button and their score gets transposed instantly. I used Passport Encore and that still required a knowledge of transposed instruments, ranges, techniques, etc.

Yeah, I totally got off topic again. BAck to Williams. Evan, I prefer not to compare Williams to Goldsmith as they had very different styles and approaches toward film scoring. But I do tend to like WIlliams' work out of the context of the film much more than Goldmsith's music. Just a preferance. And I take issue with one of your comments about how any one of us including your mother, could write as well as WIlliams if given enough time. I don't know many composers, concert or otherwise that do write at his calibre. And Williams is still pushing himself in different directions even at 70+ years. Minority Report and A.I. are two of my favorites of his. Both different from what he wrote in the '70's. And let's not forget about beauties like Angela's Ashes. it would have been so easy for him to write celtic music for the Irish tenor of the film. Yet he choose a more Vaughan WIlliams/English folk modal route.

Let's not slight one of the best composers of the late 20th century. Save that for twits like Andrew Lloyd Weber.

I agree with that defense of John Williams. He is not an innovator like Herrmann, his style is not as wide ranging and all-encompassing as Goldsmith, and his musical invention is not as brilliant thematically as John Barry or David Raksin or Alex North. However he is an expert musician, whose enormous knowledge and skill allowed him to create a recognizable (though sickeningly imitated) style with elements derived from the post romantic tradition as well as many ecletic modern influences. You are very right to mention the contrapuntal aspect. It is one of his greatest strengths, and derives in somewhat simpler form from R. Strauss's intricate mastery of lines. But also - unlike James Horner - Williams' influences are absorbed into original material. In Horner's case the material itself is lifted whole cloth - sometimes with orchestration intact - from concert music.

Oh yes, definitely! Horner I have no respect for. He pillages everything that isn't nailed down. He seems to favor ripping off Prokofiev and Shostakovich primarily although that hasn't stopped him from lifting Part, Vaughan Williams, Ligeti, amoung others.

As for current film composers, there seems to be less and less really great people writing for film. Goldenthal was the last "new" composer that floored me. BAck in the early '90's, he could do no wrong in my eyes (er ears). I LOVE his Cobb score and recommend that everyone check out this underrated masterpiece. Unlike his seminal ALIEN3 score, which tends to be a little harsh, COBB encompassed both modernist and late Romantic idioms, mostly the harmonic language of Mahler's. Listen to "Homecoming" and you'll think you've discovered a lost movement of Gustav-baby. But unlike Horner, it's not a rip off. Goldenthal writes in the style of Mahler.

Oh, you know, I totally forgot about Gabriel Yared. Shame on me. This fellow is capable of writing truly amazing music. His rejected Troy score is one of the strongest works of music written for the film medium that I've heard in ages. Every track has an underlying connotive narrative and a music structure that demands repeated listenings. It's an awesome score that I hope someday sees a commercial release.

My 0.02,

When I was a lowly freshman at the unheard of University of Buffalo, my first contact with the music department was through Alexander Schneider who was in residence with the famed 'Budapest String Quartet' (Joseph Roisman, Mischa Schneider, Boris Kroyt, and Alexander Schneider'). They were all 'professors' and great guys - over a period of 3 years, we consumed tons of pizza and burgers at 3AM, just talking about music, having lots of laughs and just hanging out and listening to 'jazz'. They were followed by 'Professors' Aaron Copland, Ned Rorem and Morton Subotnik - each and every one displaying infinitely less ego and pompousity than I've seen displayed on these pages. Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth!

BTW, Evan, I was privileged to meet your dad in NY on three occasions years ago - he fit into the above category. Never have I met a nicer or more talented man.