@Nick Batzdorf said:

Matto:

1. If you need it right now, sure. But otherwise, you're not stupid; if you know the library is going to be 40% of the price as soon as there's a group buy, you're going to wait.

2. That idea works now, but my point is that the initial value of future products is going to drop if group buys are overused. Nobody will be able to get the $1000 - which already is a huge reduction from Platinum - to make their projects pay off.

Again, that's only if this is overused. I don't mean to sound hysterical.

3. There's nothing wrong with sales, and there's nothing wrong with group buys. It's the scale that would worry me.

4. Are you trying to get me into trouble? I'm not starting a fight with Doug, I'm voicing concern about the group buy concept - or at least the extreme group buy concept. It's really none of my business, since I'm not selling sample libraries or V.I.s. Heck, maybe Doug figures he can corner the market this way. Or maybe he's planning on having everyone upgrade to the enhanced edition when it's available. What do I know.

Thanks Nick, I see what you're saying...I agree it could be a problem if it's overused...(like, for example...that I'm gonna run out of money [:D] :lol[:)] No seriously I agree with you on that, but I think it's just a bit of a fad now...I think it's gonna reduce itself to a more "reasonable" level in the near future.
And of course I'm not trying to get you in trouble...btw I'm convinced Doug is counting on a lot of people upgrading when the "pro" version of gold becomes available, hence the timing of his group buy...we'll see if it pays off.
Thanks again, it all makes sense to me now...

matto

What am I doing sitting in my office, arguing with people about group buys on Thanksgiving? Don't I have anything better to do with my time? Am I some kind of pervert? [:P]

@Another User said:

That's really the same reason Doug and Nick are able to sell Gold for $400 bucks now, but not initially.

Not quite the truth. If you say Opus 1 is a product for breaking the price point, you also gotta say that Gold is the same out o Platinum (both going for around a third of their greater brothers) - and that is at their initial retail prices around 1000 bucks! With the clearance sale going on, we talk about 90% deduction from the greater products... I can imagine VSL not being able to fund that kind of money to their users taking it away from the actual projects.

No, I'm not against group buys, it's the great discounts that bug me. Everybody knows EW have other ongoing almost monthly sales with great discounts. Wouldn't it be foolish to think those clever marketing guys don't know that too?

PolarBear

My self-posession becomes weaker and weaker ... [+o(] ... don't make Mr. Doug R. hi-jack _this_ forum too, even in his absence, ok?

/Dietz

Actually ,the only reason they CAN afford to give discounts on QSLO is because they`ve made back there initial investment to create the Lib. in the 1st place.THe SOL 30% discounts and group buys are the smartest business move. It builds momentum for there products. The more these Libs. are in Pros and and non-pros hands the more others will want it~ discount or not. Not everyone can afford Platinum or VSL Pro. Actually most musicians can`t justify dropping that kind of cash on something that will most probably be obsolete in 5 or 10 years anyways. Since probably in a few years, another developer will come up with and Orch. lib. that will blow all others away...Remember, a couple years ago, Miroslav was the Bomb...
Dont get me wrong, I`m pretty happy with VSL Pro Perf set and QLSO Platinum that i use professionally but i can see things changing down the line... [:)] Rich

Do you have specific ideas about how things will change, Rich, or just speculating in general?

Surely Rob we don't need anymore developers. Rather we would want VSL to go on developing and improving and introducing more inovation. Of course musicians will buy more than one library, especially when one considers other makers make libs that are not specifically orchestral. What one doesn't want to see, as I alluded to very early in this thread (although some of it was obviously lost in translation) is any company suddenly having cash-flow problems or whatever and going out of business. Discounts are fine in the short term, but I would rather have long - term developement and pay whatever the cost is to be honest as opposed to short term gain (and then it's only gain if you actually want the specific item in the first place).

Call me old fashioned, but I think of it as customer loyalty. [[;)]]

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Do you have specific ideas about how things will change, Rich, or just speculating in general?

He.He Pretty much speculating in general. I think things will have to really evolve if samples will have any real validity outside the multimedia world, one would really have to be able to PERFORM with samples better not just program. Thats one reason a real Performing string quartet will always blow away a perfectly programmed piece using samples. I think Physical Modelling will have a big role in the future of samples. Tassmans doing some nice things. But not to be unappreciative of the strides and efforts that going on now ~ if u`d told me 3 years ago about a VSL Performance Set of this magnitude or an Orch. Library that was recorded in a world class hall with 3 mic positions and surround capabilities i wouldn`t have believed you!! So one can only imagine the ideas and advancements 3 years from now. I`m a guitarist (35 years now) and i have to say I`m pretty blown away by NI`s guitar rig and AldrenaLinn 2.. what do u think, Nick ? Wheres all this stuff going? [:)] Rich

I agree with you, Rich. The performance interface is way behind the samples.

"I think things will have to really evolve if samples will have any real validity outside the multimedia world, one would really have to be able to PERFORM with samples better not just program. " - Rich Pell

Oh really?

Gee, I didn't realize that.

I'm working in the "multimedia world." Gosh, I thought I was just doing some music. And that it might have some validity. But no - it couldn't, because it's entirely within...

"the multimedia world."

Thanks for those tips!

I think you misunderstand, William. Nobody is insulting music for media.

The point Rich is making is that as long as you have to select different articulations all the time, you're programming rather than performing.

I believe some of the negative comments made about group buys are a little on the fearful side.

Group buys can work in a developer's favour as they draw in new customers that otherwise would not have made a purchasing decision at that time. As has been stated before, the upgrade path is a great potential for further benefits to the developer. Once people use these tools they may be convinced to stay with the company if the tools are of high quality (which I'm sure would also work in VSL's favour).

Group buys do not take away future potential buyers. People aren't going to think "well there was a group buy recently so I can't buy this product now". Provided the group buys for a given product don't happen too frequently no one that is ready to invest in a library is going to hold off for a year or so in anticipation of a group buy.

Developers benefit, customers benefit (old and new, as the company becomes stronger through a greater user base), and we see growth for future developments. In my opinion a win/win situation for all.

It can be dangerous to sit at the top (quality wise) and ignore what's happening below (avid and digidesign come to mind). While I do think most VSL products are good value, for the professional and considering what you get, I also think you have to remain competitive. I hope VSL isn't taking the elitist approach.

Tom

TomH - Judging from your account, you are new to the Vienna Symphonic Library, otherwise you would know that we have chosen the most elitist approach: making an unparalleled product even better by listening to its users.

That doesn't necessarily mean "making it cheaper", though ... [H]

/Dietz

@TomH said:

I believe some of the negative comments made about group buys are a little on the fearful side.

Group buys can work in a developer's favour as they draw in new customers that otherwise would not have made a purchasing decision at that time. As has been stated before, the upgrade path is a great potential for further benefits to the developer. Once people use these tools they may be convinced to stay with the company if the tools are of high quality (which I'm sure would also work in VSL's favour).

Group buys do not take away future potential buyers. People aren't going to think "well there was a group buy recently so I can't buy this product now". Provided the group buys for a given product don't happen too frequently no one that is ready to invest in a library is going to hold off for a year or so in anticipation of a group buy.

Developers benefit, customers benefit (old and new, as the company becomes stronger through a greater user base), and we see growth for future developments. In my opinion a win/win situation for all.

It can be dangerous to sit at the top (quality wise) and ignore what's happening below (avid and digidesign come to mind). While I do think most VSL products are good value, for the professional and considering what you get, I also think you have to remain competitive. I hope VSL isn't taking the elitist approach.

Tom

Great points Tom i totally agree..Rich

@Dietz said:

TomH - Judging from your account, you are new to the Vienna Symphonic Library, otherwise you would know that we have chosen the most elitist approach: making an unparalleled product even better by listening to its users.

That doesn't necessarily mean "making it cheaper", though ... [H]

/Dietz

But u see.. One makes it cheaper for a time, to make it MORE lucrative for your company in the long run .Draw more people in who could where sitting on the fence and will UPGRADE to Pro in the future. Its a long run thing,and Its working! But I`m wasting my time (when i could be composing with VSL) ,I know u guys wont do it.. [[;)]] Rich

@Nick Batzdorf said:

I think you misunderstand, William. Nobody is insulting music for media.

The point Rich is making is that as long as you have to select different articulations all the time, you're programming rather than performing.

Thanks Nick. That is what i meant. Why would i criticise the very field I`m in ( I compose for Film and T.V)? Perhaps the VSL team will one day come up with a way (an Special Tool or Notational interface?) to perform in a more natural way with these samples to give greater expression to there Lib. If its such an obvious thing, then why has no one done it...The Perf. Tool is definately a step in the right direction! Rich

Some people prefer "just programming." It is the modern version of writing out a score. Not inferior at all to dicking around with a keyboard.

And performing parts really well is superior to dicking around with a mouse. [:)]

Seriously, I - and I'm sure most people - use a combination of "entry" methods to massage things into sounding right. We're talking about improving what I consider the most important one. That doesn't involve taking away your favorite one.

One thing that should be noted is that EWQLSO GOLD GROUP BUY is currently at 417 with 9 days left...

417 x $398 = $165,966

...

I bought Opus 1 at the start of this year. I dont regret it one bit! I would not hold it againist VSL if they did introduce a group buy. I understand what you guys at VSL are thinking. However you dont have to reduce it by 60%. You can structure a group buy however you like. Maybe it will peak at 30% off... ? Either way you really should consider doing something.

I spend alot of money on sample libraries and believe that group buys benifit both the developer and the customer. If past customers are really unhappy about it, offer them a discount on another library... Say they brought opus1 one month ago. Now they are annoyed that it's 30% off. Offer them another library of choice at 30% off. You will find that even though they may have not wanted to buy anymore libraries at this point, now in fact they may jump at the offer. Which in turn will end up being even more successful for both you and the customer.

I think group buys go beyond a quick way to make money. They would bring more paying customers to experince VSL. And then they will buy more products in the future.

Just think of what EWQL can do now that they have made a quick $165,966 and it's still growing. They can put some of that money into expanding the business and recording more sample libraries. Which in turn will benifit everyone (except the competition).

All I ask is that you seriously consider it. I truely hope that VSL can be apart of it.

@Peter Wayne said:

417 x $398 = $165,966

...

Well, for us poor guys it seems to be a lot of money. But I think VSL prefers to sell 417 copies for the original price... [:D]