My 2 cents...

I think group buys are really best for "the underdog" (EWQL, for example), as they serve to rapidly move a large quantity of product, and thus to push it into the public eye. VSL is not the underdog, but rather the undisputed champion, or at least very definitely "the one to have"... It's like the iPod. Everybody wants one, so they'll pay the price.

I still think the innovation that could really start moving VSL, in a *big* way, would be an online store, where samples could be purchased by articulation. In this sort of setup VSL could likely charge a *larger* mark-up (on a per-sample basis), and still move more product. Also, it would give them a good way to effectively guage the most popular and widely used articulations (for what, I'm not sure!). I mean, there are key samples I would invariably buy, from almost every current library, if I had the choice. Yet, without a shadow of a doubt, I wouldn't buy any "runs", so my purchases would be streamlined to my needs. My spening would also be divided up over time, which is a *major* factor for me when it comes to money, and at the same time secures a more stable cash-flow for VSL. Happy all round! [;)]

Now... as for the server... I don't even want to think about it...

J.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

My opinion is fact, not opinion,

Ha! MY opinion is fact, not yours, in my opinion.

It seems likely that no developer would offer a sale on those things that are selling correctly and successfully already. But if there is something (Chamber strings, perhaps, or the horns?) that is NOT selling as well as the developer hoped, or for which sales have stagnated, then some kind of special offer lets them experiment with their buying audience without permanently changing the price. Naturally, only THEY know what is and what is not selling.

@Dietz said:

Sorry, no comment from my side, as this issue is solely our Marketing Team's playground. You now, I'm just a musician/technician ... :-]

/Dietz

Fair enough. Not trying to get you in trouble there [:)] .

@jbm said:

My 2 cents...

VSL is not the underdog, but rather the undisputed champion, or at least very definitely "the one to have"... It's like the iPod. Everybody wants one, so they'll pay the price.

Yes, VSL has probably got the stronger, more prestigeous brand. (But this is not to say some people have chosen EWQL over VSL because its suits their need better.)

VSL is also much more of a growing concern than EWQL. After the release of their PRO upgrade, I wouldn't be expecting much more from EWQL on this particular franchise ..... whereas VSL have clearly articulated a vision of bigger and more comprehensive library, and more Horizon products filling in niche gaps...


... in the short term VSL will probably loose sales to the current wave of Group Buys, as more disposable cash is steered toward the great bargains to be had.

... but in the long term they could do their business great harm if people expected, or held out just for group buys, at significant discounts.

... and I still think their distribution agreements are probably a hinderance rather than help in setting up Group Buys.

On the other hand if they could overcome these ... as Nick has suggested, they could selectively choose products for Group Buys ... those where the pricing hasn't been set quite right, or where sales have stagnated. And leave the could leave the premium products well alone (First, Pro and even Opus1).


Anyway the lack of a response from the marketing team either means they are busy trying to formulate an offer that will keep everyone happy, or just sitting there grinding their teeth and cursing this discussion.

@drewbuchan said:

Anyway the lack of a response from the marketing team either means they are busy trying to formulate an offer that will keep everyone happy, or just sitting there grinding their teeth and cursing this discussion.

I'd guess at the latter. Keep who happy btw?

Hello everyone,
The lack of response from the Marketing guy has a much simpler reason--I was travelling... You all made good points, and while I totally understand the wish for a group buy we are actually not thinking about it. Some of you have already mentioned why it can't or shouldn't be done, and I could add some more reasons [;)] So, no grinding our teeth, no cursing, no calculating either, but happy about you actively participating as always and a lot of nice comments on our products [:)]

All the best, Martin

Thanks for the respone, Martin.
Never hurts to ask. [:)]

matto

@Martin said:

Hello everyone,
The lack of response from the Marketing guy has a much simpler reason--I was travelling... You all made good points, and while I totally understand the wish for a group buy we are actually not thinking about it. Some of you have already mentioned why it can't or shouldn't be done, and I could add some more reasons [;)] So, no grinding our teeth, no cursing, no calculating either, but happy about you actively participating as always and a lot of nice comments on our products [:)]

All the best, Martin

Understandable, but still disappointing. [:'(] Thanks for the information at least.

Just to rub it in, right now people are asking on NS and V.I. Control whether to buy EWQLSO Gold or GPO, and whether Gold is even worth $400.

The psychology of it all is pretty devastating to everyone - and that includes people who've invested in the product at full price.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

In the longer term it's going to cause serious problems for developers if people start expecting to pay 40% of the price.

A major discount for a group buy seems like a nice thing, and it is true that with this kind of discount also people will buy the product that would not have otherwise. On the other side I only see discounts on (non-sample related) products that have a lot higher MRSPs (watch e.g. computer parts or TV/consumer audio products), so you can bet developers will sell a product with a introduction price, make a high MRSP that compensates a later discount, so that afterall nothing is lost. This may be not the case for current group buys, but you can't be sure about future ones. Honest prices don't allow great discounts that deduct more than the half (those are called clearance sales).

That's my 2ct, (not discounted)
PolarBear

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Just to rub it in, right now people are asking on NS and V.I. Control whether to buy EWQLSO Gold or GPO, and whether Gold is even worth $400.

The psychology of it all is pretty devastating to everyone - and that includes people who've invested in the product at full price.

Nick, I have not seen a single comment on NS along those lines. Maybe they are in VI Control, but not on NS. Maybe I am reading your post inthe wrong way .... but people are raving about the value.

People are ecstatic, not devastated. Its the complete reverse of what you are suggesting.

Have I read your post the wrong way ????

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Just to rub it in, right now people are asking on NS and V.I. Control whether to buy EWQLSO Gold or GPO, and whether Gold is even worth $400.

The psychology of it all is pretty devastating to everyone - and that includes people who've invested in the product at full price.

Hey Nick, I really don't understand this...

1- When I need to buy a product to help me do a project (or land a project...), I buy it. If it later goes on sale I won't be too pleased, but I live with it since the product probably already paid for itself and likely made me some money I might not have made otherwise.
On the other hand, if a product is on sale at a very attractive price, I might buy it even if I don't have an immediate need for it.

2-I remember a lot of First and Pro Edition users complained when Opus 1 first came out, since it was now possible to buy performance legato samples for a lot less than they paid...and I don't think it would have been possible to sell Opus 1 at its price point without the success of the First Edition in particular. In other words it became possible to sell an entire orchestra of VSL quality for 1000 bucks because most of the work had already been done. That's really the same reason Doug and Nick are able to sell Gold for $400 bucks now, but not initially.

3-All a a group buy is is a sale, with some provisions that make it a bit less risky for the vendor. Like any other sale it's a time-limited marketing device designed to turn new customers onto a company's product or product line. If these sales have such a devastating effect on business, why do almost all businesses or outlets that have a product to sell do them?

4-I respect VSL's decision not to do any group buys. They know their market and their customers, and they know what's best for their company.
By the same token, isn't it a bit presumptuous to say that Doug (Rogers) is engaging in business practices that are "devastating to everyone"? I mean the guy has been running East West successfully for many years, so I'm inclined to believe he knows a thing or two about what he's doing...

5-There will always be people who can't tell the difference between a $ 300 library, a $ 1000 library, and a $ 3000 library. The reason for that is, most likely, that in their hands all of them sound like cr@p [:D]

My 2 cents...

matto

Whatever can be said, what is true is Doug is a great businessman. This move will position QLSO as a go to orchestral package for a lot of professionals.

He is creating a large new user base that will eventually upgrade to Gold Pro or Platinum/Pro. As much as I like VSL, the lack of sale type prices or Group Buys will probably not make me consider VSL for some time to come. I already have Gold and VSL from Giga 3. A lot of people are in my position, so that is why I thought a Group Buy might be a great idea for Vienna. Such a group buy would make me easily upgrading to the big packages down the line.

@Another User said:

People are ecstatic, not devastated.

Well of course! People are getting a great deal. But if the world expects something like Gold for $400, I don't see how anyone can make a living developing libraries. That would be devastating.

Matto:

1. If you need it right now, sure. But otherwise, you're not stupid; if you know the library is going to be 40% of the price as soon as there's a group buy, you're going to wait.

2. That idea works now, but my point is that the initial value of future products is going to drop if group buys are overused. Nobody will be able to get the $1000 - which already is a huge reduction from Platinum - to make their projects pay off.

Again, that's only if this is overused. I don't mean to sound hysterical.

3. There's nothing wrong with sales, and there's nothing wrong with group buys. It's the scale that would worry me.

4. Are you trying to get me into trouble? I'm not starting a fight with Doug, I'm voicing concern about the group buy concept - or at least the extreme group buy concept. It's really none of my business, since I'm not selling sample libraries or V.I.s. Heck, maybe Doug figures he can corner the market this way. Or maybe he's planning on having everyone upgrade to the enhanced edition when it's available. What do I know.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Matto:

1. If you need it right now, sure. But otherwise, you're not stupid; if you know the library is going to be 40% of the price as soon as there's a group buy, you're going to wait.

2. That idea works now, but my point is that the initial value of future products is going to drop if group buys are overused. Nobody will be able to get the $1000 - which already is a huge reduction from Platinum - to make their projects pay off.

Again, that's only if this is overused. I don't mean to sound hysterical.

3. There's nothing wrong with sales, and there's nothing wrong with group buys. It's the scale that would worry me.

4. Are you trying to get me into trouble? I'm not starting a fight with Doug, I'm voicing concern about the group buy concept - or at least the extreme group buy concept. It's really none of my business, since I'm not selling sample libraries or V.I.s. Heck, maybe Doug figures he can corner the market this way. Or maybe he's planning on having everyone upgrade to the enhanced edition when it's available. What do I know.

Thanks Nick, I see what you're saying...I agree it could be a problem if it's overused...(like, for example...that I'm gonna run out of money [:D] :lol[:)] No seriously I agree with you on that, but I think it's just a bit of a fad now...I think it's gonna reduce itself to a more "reasonable" level in the near future.
And of course I'm not trying to get you in trouble...btw I'm convinced Doug is counting on a lot of people upgrading when the "pro" version of gold becomes available, hence the timing of his group buy...we'll see if it pays off.
Thanks again, it all makes sense to me now...

matto

What am I doing sitting in my office, arguing with people about group buys on Thanksgiving? Don't I have anything better to do with my time? Am I some kind of pervert? [:P]

@Another User said:

That's really the same reason Doug and Nick are able to sell Gold for $400 bucks now, but not initially.

Not quite the truth. If you say Opus 1 is a product for breaking the price point, you also gotta say that Gold is the same out o Platinum (both going for around a third of their greater brothers) - and that is at their initial retail prices around 1000 bucks! With the clearance sale going on, we talk about 90% deduction from the greater products... I can imagine VSL not being able to fund that kind of money to their users taking it away from the actual projects.

No, I'm not against group buys, it's the great discounts that bug me. Everybody knows EW have other ongoing almost monthly sales with great discounts. Wouldn't it be foolish to think those clever marketing guys don't know that too?

PolarBear

My self-posession becomes weaker and weaker ... [+o(] ... don't make Mr. Doug R. hi-jack _this_ forum too, even in his absence, ok?

/Dietz

Actually ,the only reason they CAN afford to give discounts on QSLO is because they`ve made back there initial investment to create the Lib. in the 1st place.THe SOL 30% discounts and group buys are the smartest business move. It builds momentum for there products. The more these Libs. are in Pros and and non-pros hands the more others will want it~ discount or not. Not everyone can afford Platinum or VSL Pro. Actually most musicians can`t justify dropping that kind of cash on something that will most probably be obsolete in 5 or 10 years anyways. Since probably in a few years, another developer will come up with and Orch. lib. that will blow all others away...Remember, a couple years ago, Miroslav was the Bomb...
Dont get me wrong, I`m pretty happy with VSL Pro Perf set and QLSO Platinum that i use professionally but i can see things changing down the line... [:)] Rich

Do you have specific ideas about how things will change, Rich, or just speculating in general?