Just to rub it in, right now people are asking on NS and V.I. Control whether to buy EWQLSO Gold or GPO, and whether Gold is even worth $400.

The psychology of it all is pretty devastating to everyone - and that includes people who've invested in the product at full price.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

In the longer term it's going to cause serious problems for developers if people start expecting to pay 40% of the price.

A major discount for a group buy seems like a nice thing, and it is true that with this kind of discount also people will buy the product that would not have otherwise. On the other side I only see discounts on (non-sample related) products that have a lot higher MRSPs (watch e.g. computer parts or TV/consumer audio products), so you can bet developers will sell a product with a introduction price, make a high MRSP that compensates a later discount, so that afterall nothing is lost. This may be not the case for current group buys, but you can't be sure about future ones. Honest prices don't allow great discounts that deduct more than the half (those are called clearance sales).

That's my 2ct, (not discounted)
PolarBear

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Just to rub it in, right now people are asking on NS and V.I. Control whether to buy EWQLSO Gold or GPO, and whether Gold is even worth $400.

The psychology of it all is pretty devastating to everyone - and that includes people who've invested in the product at full price.

Nick, I have not seen a single comment on NS along those lines. Maybe they are in VI Control, but not on NS. Maybe I am reading your post inthe wrong way .... but people are raving about the value.

People are ecstatic, not devastated. Its the complete reverse of what you are suggesting.

Have I read your post the wrong way ????

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Just to rub it in, right now people are asking on NS and V.I. Control whether to buy EWQLSO Gold or GPO, and whether Gold is even worth $400.

The psychology of it all is pretty devastating to everyone - and that includes people who've invested in the product at full price.

Hey Nick, I really don't understand this...

1- When I need to buy a product to help me do a project (or land a project...), I buy it. If it later goes on sale I won't be too pleased, but I live with it since the product probably already paid for itself and likely made me some money I might not have made otherwise.
On the other hand, if a product is on sale at a very attractive price, I might buy it even if I don't have an immediate need for it.

2-I remember a lot of First and Pro Edition users complained when Opus 1 first came out, since it was now possible to buy performance legato samples for a lot less than they paid...and I don't think it would have been possible to sell Opus 1 at its price point without the success of the First Edition in particular. In other words it became possible to sell an entire orchestra of VSL quality for 1000 bucks because most of the work had already been done. That's really the same reason Doug and Nick are able to sell Gold for $400 bucks now, but not initially.

3-All a a group buy is is a sale, with some provisions that make it a bit less risky for the vendor. Like any other sale it's a time-limited marketing device designed to turn new customers onto a company's product or product line. If these sales have such a devastating effect on business, why do almost all businesses or outlets that have a product to sell do them?

4-I respect VSL's decision not to do any group buys. They know their market and their customers, and they know what's best for their company.
By the same token, isn't it a bit presumptuous to say that Doug (Rogers) is engaging in business practices that are "devastating to everyone"? I mean the guy has been running East West successfully for many years, so I'm inclined to believe he knows a thing or two about what he's doing...

5-There will always be people who can't tell the difference between a $ 300 library, a $ 1000 library, and a $ 3000 library. The reason for that is, most likely, that in their hands all of them sound like cr@p [:D]

My 2 cents...

matto

Whatever can be said, what is true is Doug is a great businessman. This move will position QLSO as a go to orchestral package for a lot of professionals.

He is creating a large new user base that will eventually upgrade to Gold Pro or Platinum/Pro. As much as I like VSL, the lack of sale type prices or Group Buys will probably not make me consider VSL for some time to come. I already have Gold and VSL from Giga 3. A lot of people are in my position, so that is why I thought a Group Buy might be a great idea for Vienna. Such a group buy would make me easily upgrading to the big packages down the line.

@Another User said:

People are ecstatic, not devastated.

Well of course! People are getting a great deal. But if the world expects something like Gold for $400, I don't see how anyone can make a living developing libraries. That would be devastating.

Matto:

1. If you need it right now, sure. But otherwise, you're not stupid; if you know the library is going to be 40% of the price as soon as there's a group buy, you're going to wait.

2. That idea works now, but my point is that the initial value of future products is going to drop if group buys are overused. Nobody will be able to get the $1000 - which already is a huge reduction from Platinum - to make their projects pay off.

Again, that's only if this is overused. I don't mean to sound hysterical.

3. There's nothing wrong with sales, and there's nothing wrong with group buys. It's the scale that would worry me.

4. Are you trying to get me into trouble? I'm not starting a fight with Doug, I'm voicing concern about the group buy concept - or at least the extreme group buy concept. It's really none of my business, since I'm not selling sample libraries or V.I.s. Heck, maybe Doug figures he can corner the market this way. Or maybe he's planning on having everyone upgrade to the enhanced edition when it's available. What do I know.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Matto:

1. If you need it right now, sure. But otherwise, you're not stupid; if you know the library is going to be 40% of the price as soon as there's a group buy, you're going to wait.

2. That idea works now, but my point is that the initial value of future products is going to drop if group buys are overused. Nobody will be able to get the $1000 - which already is a huge reduction from Platinum - to make their projects pay off.

Again, that's only if this is overused. I don't mean to sound hysterical.

3. There's nothing wrong with sales, and there's nothing wrong with group buys. It's the scale that would worry me.

4. Are you trying to get me into trouble? I'm not starting a fight with Doug, I'm voicing concern about the group buy concept - or at least the extreme group buy concept. It's really none of my business, since I'm not selling sample libraries or V.I.s. Heck, maybe Doug figures he can corner the market this way. Or maybe he's planning on having everyone upgrade to the enhanced edition when it's available. What do I know.

Thanks Nick, I see what you're saying...I agree it could be a problem if it's overused...(like, for example...that I'm gonna run out of money [:D] :lol[:)] No seriously I agree with you on that, but I think it's just a bit of a fad now...I think it's gonna reduce itself to a more "reasonable" level in the near future.
And of course I'm not trying to get you in trouble...btw I'm convinced Doug is counting on a lot of people upgrading when the "pro" version of gold becomes available, hence the timing of his group buy...we'll see if it pays off.
Thanks again, it all makes sense to me now...

matto

What am I doing sitting in my office, arguing with people about group buys on Thanksgiving? Don't I have anything better to do with my time? Am I some kind of pervert? [:P]

@Another User said:

That's really the same reason Doug and Nick are able to sell Gold for $400 bucks now, but not initially.

Not quite the truth. If you say Opus 1 is a product for breaking the price point, you also gotta say that Gold is the same out o Platinum (both going for around a third of their greater brothers) - and that is at their initial retail prices around 1000 bucks! With the clearance sale going on, we talk about 90% deduction from the greater products... I can imagine VSL not being able to fund that kind of money to their users taking it away from the actual projects.

No, I'm not against group buys, it's the great discounts that bug me. Everybody knows EW have other ongoing almost monthly sales with great discounts. Wouldn't it be foolish to think those clever marketing guys don't know that too?

PolarBear

My self-posession becomes weaker and weaker ... [+o(] ... don't make Mr. Doug R. hi-jack _this_ forum too, even in his absence, ok?

/Dietz

Actually ,the only reason they CAN afford to give discounts on QSLO is because they`ve made back there initial investment to create the Lib. in the 1st place.THe SOL 30% discounts and group buys are the smartest business move. It builds momentum for there products. The more these Libs. are in Pros and and non-pros hands the more others will want it~ discount or not. Not everyone can afford Platinum or VSL Pro. Actually most musicians can`t justify dropping that kind of cash on something that will most probably be obsolete in 5 or 10 years anyways. Since probably in a few years, another developer will come up with and Orch. lib. that will blow all others away...Remember, a couple years ago, Miroslav was the Bomb...
Dont get me wrong, I`m pretty happy with VSL Pro Perf set and QLSO Platinum that i use professionally but i can see things changing down the line... [:)] Rich

Do you have specific ideas about how things will change, Rich, or just speculating in general?

Surely Rob we don't need anymore developers. Rather we would want VSL to go on developing and improving and introducing more inovation. Of course musicians will buy more than one library, especially when one considers other makers make libs that are not specifically orchestral. What one doesn't want to see, as I alluded to very early in this thread (although some of it was obviously lost in translation) is any company suddenly having cash-flow problems or whatever and going out of business. Discounts are fine in the short term, but I would rather have long - term developement and pay whatever the cost is to be honest as opposed to short term gain (and then it's only gain if you actually want the specific item in the first place).

Call me old fashioned, but I think of it as customer loyalty. [[;)]]

@Nick Batzdorf said:

Do you have specific ideas about how things will change, Rich, or just speculating in general?

He.He Pretty much speculating in general. I think things will have to really evolve if samples will have any real validity outside the multimedia world, one would really have to be able to PERFORM with samples better not just program. Thats one reason a real Performing string quartet will always blow away a perfectly programmed piece using samples. I think Physical Modelling will have a big role in the future of samples. Tassmans doing some nice things. But not to be unappreciative of the strides and efforts that going on now ~ if u`d told me 3 years ago about a VSL Performance Set of this magnitude or an Orch. Library that was recorded in a world class hall with 3 mic positions and surround capabilities i wouldn`t have believed you!! So one can only imagine the ideas and advancements 3 years from now. I`m a guitarist (35 years now) and i have to say I`m pretty blown away by NI`s guitar rig and AldrenaLinn 2.. what do u think, Nick ? Wheres all this stuff going? [:)] Rich

I agree with you, Rich. The performance interface is way behind the samples.

"I think things will have to really evolve if samples will have any real validity outside the multimedia world, one would really have to be able to PERFORM with samples better not just program. " - Rich Pell

Oh really?

Gee, I didn't realize that.

I'm working in the "multimedia world." Gosh, I thought I was just doing some music. And that it might have some validity. But no - it couldn't, because it's entirely within...

"the multimedia world."

Thanks for those tips!

I think you misunderstand, William. Nobody is insulting music for media.

The point Rich is making is that as long as you have to select different articulations all the time, you're programming rather than performing.

I believe some of the negative comments made about group buys are a little on the fearful side.

Group buys can work in a developer's favour as they draw in new customers that otherwise would not have made a purchasing decision at that time. As has been stated before, the upgrade path is a great potential for further benefits to the developer. Once people use these tools they may be convinced to stay with the company if the tools are of high quality (which I'm sure would also work in VSL's favour).

Group buys do not take away future potential buyers. People aren't going to think "well there was a group buy recently so I can't buy this product now". Provided the group buys for a given product don't happen too frequently no one that is ready to invest in a library is going to hold off for a year or so in anticipation of a group buy.

Developers benefit, customers benefit (old and new, as the company becomes stronger through a greater user base), and we see growth for future developments. In my opinion a win/win situation for all.

It can be dangerous to sit at the top (quality wise) and ignore what's happening below (avid and digidesign come to mind). While I do think most VSL products are good value, for the professional and considering what you get, I also think you have to remain competitive. I hope VSL isn't taking the elitist approach.

Tom

TomH - Judging from your account, you are new to the Vienna Symphonic Library, otherwise you would know that we have chosen the most elitist approach: making an unparalleled product even better by listening to its users.

That doesn't necessarily mean "making it cheaper", though ... [H]

/Dietz

@TomH said:

I believe some of the negative comments made about group buys are a little on the fearful side.

Group buys can work in a developer's favour as they draw in new customers that otherwise would not have made a purchasing decision at that time. As has been stated before, the upgrade path is a great potential for further benefits to the developer. Once people use these tools they may be convinced to stay with the company if the tools are of high quality (which I'm sure would also work in VSL's favour).

Group buys do not take away future potential buyers. People aren't going to think "well there was a group buy recently so I can't buy this product now". Provided the group buys for a given product don't happen too frequently no one that is ready to invest in a library is going to hold off for a year or so in anticipation of a group buy.

Developers benefit, customers benefit (old and new, as the company becomes stronger through a greater user base), and we see growth for future developments. In my opinion a win/win situation for all.

It can be dangerous to sit at the top (quality wise) and ignore what's happening below (avid and digidesign come to mind). While I do think most VSL products are good value, for the professional and considering what you get, I also think you have to remain competitive. I hope VSL isn't taking the elitist approach.

Tom

Great points Tom i totally agree..Rich