@Nick Batzdorf said:

The disconnect is that I'm always right and other people are only right when they agree with me.

LOL!

I'm only running 2.5 GB in the dual 1.8 now, since it got demoted to a sequencer-only machine. No more VIs for this baby! But way back when that original thread was going I was running 4 GB, as I recall, and it was pretty dismal - just loads of pops and clicks. Mind you, I've been having lots of grim performance problems with Sibelius 5 recently, which is making me think that perhaps my machine is just a piece of crap. Who knows. I'm praying that the fall will bring a new Mac Pro worth upgrading to.
A few months ago I wiped the system and re-installed and it seemed to help... for a while. There were reports that this particular model had an SATA bus problem which could cause file corruption, but my performance problems don't seem related to file corruption, which would tend to have more cataclysmic results. Also, the Apple Service Diagnostic CD for this machine finds no fault - all tests pass. (And no, I'm not using that crappy hardware test CD - this is the real McCoy!).

Anyway, fingers crossed for our huggable cell phone company to actually release a computer in October... (Which isn't to say that I don't need an iToothpick, or an iPoop-scoop, or an iNavigate...) The only problem being that any new machine will probably only boot Leopard or higher, and then we'll have other fish to fry! [[:|]]

J.

Of course, by the time 64 bit is actually up and working on all hardware and software, solid state disks may have developed sufficiently (read - become cheaper) that we no longer need such a significant pre-load in VSL (or other plug-ins). They can simply read the data off the (solid state) hard-drive instead. It is worth remembering that the only reason for such a large pre-load (OK - only large because of the number of samples we have) is because of the latency of contentional hard-drives, which have to physically seek across the drive using a mechanical arm.
With the advent of solid state disks, it takes the same amount of time to find any piece of information on the drive - and it does that 100x times quicker than a conventional drive.
It is a funny time. I suspect that this race to get bigger and bigger memory on a machine may suddenly find itself redundant.
Of course, this also means that the concept of de-frag maybe becomes a thing of the past. Who cares if your data is all over the place on a solid state drive, if it takes the same time to access it wherever the data resides.
Interesting...
I don't think it will be a long way off before the concept of memory and hard-drives start to merge and we no longer think of the two as separate entities.

@paynterr said:

Of course, by the time 64 bit is actually up and working on all hardware and software, solid state disks may have developed sufficiently (read - become cheaper) that we no longer need such a significant pre-load in VSL (or other plug-ins). They can simply read the data off the (solid state) hard-drive instead. It is worth remembering that the only reason for such a large pre-load (OK - only large because of the number of samples we have) is because of the latency of contentional hard-drives, which have to physically seek across the drive using a mechanical arm.
With the advent of solid state disks, it takes the same amount of time to find any piece of information on the drive - and it does that 100x times quicker than a conventional drive.
It is a funny time. I suspect that this race to get bigger and bigger memory on a machine may suddenly find itself redundant.
Of course, this also means that the concept of de-frag maybe becomes a thing of the past. Who cares if your data is all over the place on a solid state drive, if it takes the same time to access it wherever the data resides.
Interesting...
I don't think it will be a long way off before the concept of memory and hard-drives start to merge and we no longer think of the two as separate entities.

Yep. Very good points, right across the board. I do think VSL has been on the technology-pushing train for a while now - just look at how long it's taking the current technology to catch up with the MIR. I mean, as I understand it, the main reason we're still waiting is because the current technology still isn't up to the job - at least not enough to unleash MIR on the big public. But really, actual performance of chips hasn't improved at anywhere near the rate we would have expected 7-10 years ago. I mean, highly significant speed bumps were common back in the late 90s, but it just doesn't happen any more. Damned physics...
But the main point you made is the one about hard drives and ram kind of merging in the future. I think that's probably very true. And if you think about it that way, then having one's entire template on a single machine, given a hearty enough processor, will probably be a doddle! Nice. Oh, to dream...

J.

@jbm said:

I'm only running 2.5 GB in the dual 1.8 now...

Have you considered adding more RAM? It's quite affordable for your machine. $100 or less will buy you noticeable performance gains.

Granted, much can be done with 2.5 GB, but your DAW will access at least another GB on top of that. Why not give your machine and your DAW the best chance possible of delivering all it can?

@jbm said:

I do think VSL has been on the technology-pushing train for a while now.....

J.

Except that there still is no 64bit version of the sample player available yet. Other companies have already delivered this, so for once VSL is lagging behind.

DG

@jbm said:

I'm only running 2.5 GB in the dual 1.8 now...

Have you considered adding more RAM? It's quite affordable for your machine. $100 or less will buy you noticeable performance gains.

Granted, much can be done with 2.5 GB, but your DAW will access at least another GB on top of that. Why not give your machine and your DAW the best chance possible of delivering all it can?

Read on, read on, JWL. The dual 1.8 was running 4 GB, but got demoted for being poop. The 4 GB kit went into one of my PC slave machines...

------------

DG,

True about the 64bit plug. Golem mentioned a while back he would post a thread on the problems their facing on the road to 64bits. I wonder if he'll post that soon? Anyway, being a Mac guy, (ironically) I'm still waiting for a practical 64bit solution on the software side - hosts, drivers, and so on (though my card is RME, so it could be supported, I guess).


J.

I assume the Windows version is also 32-bit right now?

"Other companies have already delivered this, so for once VSL is lagging behind"

Only EastWest's PLAY as far as I know.

According to EastWest:

"PLAY upgrades for the Orchestra are due to be released this Fall, we will have more information on our website regarding this once we get closer to releasing it."

(PLAY is the 64bit sample player for EastWest.)

@Nick Batzdorf said:

"Other companies have already delivered this, so for once VSL is lagging behind"

Only EastWest's PLAY as far as I know.

I was trying not to be specific. [:D]

OK, so VSL is lagging behind EW when it comes to sample player development. Happy now?

Actually I think that all the software and hardware manufacturers seem to be waiting for each other, but the silly thing is, that when the 64bit versions of DAWs are released, there will be people complaining that they have to use some sort of wrapper just to get their favourite plugs to run. I wish that more companies would think ahead. I mean, its not as if a 64bit OS is exactly new. Windows has had a good, stable 64bit OS for a number of years, and now has two. Allegedly Apple may even have one by the end of the year, providing that too many resources aren't diverted to the iToilet. [8-)]

DG

I just had a slightly chilling thought... What if, when Apple finally gets 64bits off the ground and working, they get all excited and start piling their massive OS into RAM? [[:|]]

hehe... I know, it's not going to happen, but it would be kind of funny... sad, but funny.

J.

@Nick Batzdorf said:

"Other companies have already delivered this, so for once VSL is lagging behind"

Only EastWest's PLAY as far as I know.

I was trying not to be specific. [:D]

OK, so VSL is lagging behind EW when it comes to sample player development. Happy now?

Actually I think that all the software and hardware manufacturers seem to be waiting for each other, but the silly thing is, that when the 64bit versions of DAWs are released, there will be people complaining that they have to use some sort of wrapper just to get their favourite plugs to run. I wish that more companies would think ahead. I mean, its not as if a 64bit OS is exactly new. Windows has had a good, stable 64bit OS for a number of years, and now has two. Allegedly Apple may even have one by the end of the year, providing that too many resources aren't diverted to the iToilet. [8-)]

DG

Yup! But probably it's not so much a matter of thinking ahead, as it is a matter or prioritizing development money. With genuine 64bit operation, at all levels of the system, still somewhat in the distance, companies are probably just waiting for it to become more of a practical reality before dumping development funds into it. And unfortunately, I have to admit that, beyond VSL, I have basically no need for a 64bit OS, app, driver, etc.... So it must be tough to make it a huge priority, for a lot of companies. We are in the absolute elite of RAM-hogging fields. It's not just being in the sub-category of "music", but being in the sub-sub-category of the sample-based virtual orchestra - not something you hear Ted and Jane arguing about at the tube station! [;)]

J.

nick, stephen, sorry if i lost track on this, but your statements read contradicting ... has been PLAY already released or are more details to be announced this fall ... i don't get it ...

DG, i agree when you say *Windows has had a good, stable 64bit OS for a number of years*, but i can't agree on *and now has two* [:P]
christian

ps: i'd be in no way entitled to give apple any advices, but IMO the best idea would be to go back to the roots of this OS and release OS X 64bit crossplattform (which in fact isn't *cross* anymore though) ... BSD runs 64bit rock solid since ages ... of course they had to fix the somehow crude memory management.

Well cm, the solution is obvious! VI running on BSD!!!

Just picture all us VI users hunkered down, punching in matrix mappings on the command line... [:P]

J.

jbm, shall read: would be ... a few pieces are missing like audio drivers for most devices and a license control center. i came across BSD (4.0?) when i noticed the DV streaming server (must have been a decade ago) - a brilliant application.
christian

ps:

@Another User said:

Just picture all us VI users hunkered down, punching in matrix mappings on the command line

well considering you have to make friends with terminal from time to time this shouldn't be too hard ... and you could always use emacs [:P]

@cm said:

nick, stephen, sorry if i lost track on this, but your statements read contradicting ... has been PLAY already released or are more details to be announced this fall ... i don't get it ...

PLAY has already been released for the new libraries. The orchestral libraries are currently being converted, and are due for release in the fall.

Not to rain too hard on VSL, I have to say that from what I've read so far PLAY is not in the same league as the VSL VI player (apart from the 64bit thing) and has a number of bugs. There are many planned features, but like anything else, until they are available, they don't exist. A bit like Leopard...... [:D]

DG

@cm said:

DG, i agree when you say *Windows has had a good, stable 64bit OS for a number of years*, but i can't agree on *and now has two* [:P]
christian

Ooooooooooooo. That's low.

FWIW my XP64 bit sample box is due to arrive next week, so I'll let you know how I get on.

DG

@DG said:

Not to rain too hard on VSL, I have to say that from what I've read so far PLAY is not in the same league as the VSL VI player (apart from the 64bit thing) and has a number of bugs. There are many planned features, but like anything else, until they are available, they don't exist. A bit like Leopard...... [:D]

DG

PLAY is a far cry from VSL-league at the moment. It's a promising engine, but it's still a little wet behind the ears being a 1.0 version.

It's really amazing in retrospect to see the vast distance the Vienna team has covered since the Standard Edition. This came to mind with the recent "last chance" announcement for some of the earlier collections.

VSL has simply gone from being a clever concept to being downright elegant!

@DG said:

Not to rain too hard on VSL, I have to say that from what I've read so far PLAY is not in the same league as the VSL VI player (apart from the 64bit thing) and has a number of bugs. There are many planned features, but like anything else, until they are available, they don't exist. A bit like Leopard...... [:D]

DG

PLAY is a far cry from VSL-league at the moment. It's a promising engine, but it's still a little wet behind the ears being a 1.0 version.

It's really amazing in retrospect to see the vast distance the Vienna team has covered since the Standard Edition. This came to mind with the recent "last chance" announcement for some of the earlier collections.

VSL has simply gone from being a clever concept to being downright elegant!
I agree. I haven't used PLAY, so I'm merely speculating, but I seem to remember that VSL VI player had very few bugs when it was released. In fact I think that most of them were on Mac and concerned the Syncrosoft dongle. However, we are now 18 months down the line, so I'm sure that many of us are hoping to see a big improvement in the next incarnation.

DG

@cm said:

Nick, stephen, sorry if i lost track on this, but your statements read contradicting ... has been PLAY already released or are more details to be announced this fall ... i don't get it ...

cm:

To answer your question:

The statement I quoted in my initial post - - indicating that the release of the PLAY version of the EWQLSO is planned for the Fall of 2007 - - is from an e-mail I received from EastWest Technical Support on July 5, 2007. Whether PLAY has been released for libraries other than the EWQLSO, I don't know.