It couldn't possibly be a mistake to study Beethoven. His examples are in every orchestration book I know of. Your making the leap that one would automatically orchestrate identically like him. Wagner who's orchestration technique is everywhere today studied him as did Tchaikovsky, Mahler and virtually every composer that followed him. None of them sound like him or even orchestrated like him or each other for that matter. I can't name two composers who orchestrate identically.

You are saying, study Tchaikovsky and not Beethoven? I am saying study them both. This is a mistake? That seems like a spurious argument in the extreme.

edit: A quick glance at the Adler, Kennen and Piston books shows a ton of examples from Beethoven so I would be interested to know where you differ from these guys.

Also DG the Tutti is what Beethoven is often sighted for as a master of. Just because he adjusted for instrument limitations of the day isn't a stumbling block to the general idea. The student just has to apprehend this and in fact orchestration books always point out how he overcame these problems. It's just this type of thinking that is of huge benefit because problem solving is a huge part of orchestrating. To get inside the mind of a great master is precisely the idea (imho) so to skip Beethoven in this regard would be the real mistake.

All right, I am editing this again in order to try and be respectful, but it is difficult when someone says something as wrong as "don't study Beethoven for orchestration."

Beethoven invented modern orchestration. All orchestrators copy him, either directly, or through the others who did before them. Including Tchaikovsky who worshipped him.

So not to study Beethoven is simply to be completely ignorant.

No one in all of music history has surpassed the Eroica in orchestration. And that is only his 3rd symphony. And the string quartets? Forget it. No one CAN to this day write like that for strings.

So go ahead, study all the copies, and ignore the original.

makes a lot of sense. [8-)]

Well I didn't mean to start a war but I will say that I began to talk about LvB's string writing as singular in the literature but deleted it as too long a post. Many people seem to exclude writing for strings as orchestration in some way which I have never understood. LvB is to me relentlessly astonishing in this regard. The opening strings of the slow mvmt of the ninth seem so unconventional as to be wrong in some theoretic way but the sound is perfect. The polyphonic writing when the Ode to Joy tune is first presented stands as perhaps the pinnacle of the artform.

Right, I've recovered, and put the elephant gun away.

And, i watched an old film here late last night, for which Shostakovich did the music. Delightful, to put it mildly, and i could hear both LVB and Tchaikovsky in the work, if we were to make a comparison. (Even Mozart gets a run, as this was a historical setting, and a particular formal dance scene showed Dmitri's mastery of more than two or three styles of writing.)
I will stick to my guns here with LVB. For a foundation, if one were to search for a purely study perspective, LVB still has much to say, and teach. This is strictly a personal opinion, and i will reiterate my preference for for the maestro, as one who has the most profound effect on me, in general. The texture of space between parts in the Quartets is a part in itself, and has proved a formidable study for me, as i continue to learn.

In relation to film, and if we were to stick to the last ten years or so, I think much of LVB's orchestrative structure has been ignored, in favour of the later styles of Stravinski, etc... That may be ok, but we've waxed lyrical here quite a few times about the merits or otherwise of today's film scoring, and it would be fair to say, i'm less than enthused with the result. And i will, on reflection defend Daryl here, just a little (lol!), as Tchaikovsky's string writing has to be part of any research and study in writing for image.

Personally, LVB taught me two things immediately, those being part writing, and the power of silence. In addition, his mastery of syncopation speaks for itself, and as Daryl wisely pointed out, the contrapunctal instinct is worthy of any study program, be it formal, or in my case, a lifetime enjoyment.

Tanuj, it seems you have quite a bit to get you started, and i'd like to add Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov to this list. His melodic writing is excellent, and in structural context, he creates images in music that may prove extremely useful in writing for film. Nikolai, IMHO, creates wonderful 'stories in sound', and is part of my present study program for this reason, among others.
(Mlada, The Golden Cockerel, Sheherezade, etc...)
In addition, and in the same vein, Borodin is a true master of the russian form, and there is much of his thematic material in film scores today. He's often ignored in 'declarations of popularity', but i consider him a real heavyweight in the development of modern musical form.

Another three roubles worth!

Regards,

Alex.

Hey you guys; who stole your lunch money? I'm only trying to point out that someone who, by their own admission, knows very little about formal orchestration, can be sold a dummy by studying Beethoven. I never said that he shouldn't be studied, however, I still maintain that one has to be careful. There are so many classic examples of horn writing (for example), that were fudged due to the limitations of the instruments of the day, that a rookie orchestrator should not copy. There are also things in Tchaikovsky that are unnecessary is today's musical climate, but I think that as a first entry point, there is more in common with modern orchestration that Beethoven. feel free to disagree; I'm only voicing an opinion, and by definition, that can't be wrong.

DG

No question as to disagreeing because I would point to Beethoven for anyone who wanted to see great horn writing. I do agree with Adler who uses LvB 6th as his second example. Kennan sighting the horn in the 5th as dramatic and arresting. Piston sighting the Pno Cto 5 saying the natural horn, with all it's limitations had a vital and lasting influence on melody and harmony. This style can be heard in Goldsmith's writing in Patton (my favorite rookie) so I don't understand any impractical or errant influence upon a student.

@dpcon said:

No question as to disagreeing because I would point to Beethoven for anyone who wanted to see great horn writing. I do agree with Adler who uses LvB 6th as his second example. Kennan sighting the horn in the 5th as dramatic and arresting. Piston sighting the Pno Cto 5 saying the natural horn, with all it's limitations had a vital and lasting influence on melody and harmony. This style can be heard in Goldsmith's writing in Patton (my favorite rookie) so I don't understand any impractical or errant influence upon a student.

Well let me remind you of a famous example then. Beethoven 5th Symphony, 1st movement, Recapitulation of the 2nd subject. The Horns play the first 4 notes and the Bassoons play the next 2. Obviously, this is because the notes weren't available to the Horns for the whole phrase. Now let's transfer that to a sample rendition. OK, a good musician would naturally make the volume of the Bassoons match the Horns and thereby get an incorrect view of the relative dynamic ranges of these instruments.

My point is that unlike William (pointing a gnarled finger...!), I think that studying the imitators (poor Tchaikovsky) is often better than studying the Masters, for a view of the safest way to do things. When the knowledge of what is correct has been assimilated, then it is the time to look at how the innovators break the rules, and why it works.

DG

Daryl,
I'm gonna sound like a heretic here, but i like the horn/bassoon transition, without reinforcing the bassoons. I always thought the modern propensity for doubling this part missed the point.
I'm going with Dave on the great horn parts (and Brass). The beginning of the last movement of the fifth (including the simple build up) gets me in the loins every time. What a great way to start anything. And let's not forget the fear Beethoven still instills in Horn players, with the sections in the seventh.

You made a good point about the limitations of the instrument though. And horns in particular. But i wonder if we've gained anything playing Beethoven on a chromatic instrument, versus the skill required to play in the harmonic scale with manual slide changes. I wonder if the modern horn is too....'fat' in sound to play as the composer heard it. And maybe this relates to the horn/bassoon passage you wrote of. Should it be, in fact, the reverse of modern expectations? A thinner sounding horn would create a better balance with the bassoon?

Still, what do i know!

Regards,

Alex.

@DG said:

Well let me remind you of a famous example then. Beethoven 5th Symphony, 1st movement, Recapitulation of the 2nd subject. The Horns play the first 4 notes and the Bassoons play the next 2. Obviously, this is because the notes weren't available to the Horns for the whole phrase. DG

Actually the bassoons play the entire phrase with the horns in on the sfz (not intending to quibble here) and yes it's famous and due to the limitations of the day. Many conductors (since the valve horn arrived) simply have the horns play the whole phrase. But this hardly negates the myriad of treasures in the piece to be studied and in fact it should be a joy to the student to learn such things (it was to me when my conducting teacher pointed this passage out to me 25 years ago.)

Speaking of the 5th: How about the two clarinets doubling the violins on the most famous theme in the history of music? (1st mvt., bar 1 meas 1.) You don't really hear them per se but they're there - why? Or the entire strings distribution with the basses in unison at pitch with the cellos? Burning! And so the wonderful journey begins. So this is why I cannot recommend LvB fast enough to any student.

@hermitage59 said:

You made a good point about the limitations of the instrument though. And horns in particular. But i wonder if we've gained anything playing Beethoven on a chromatic instrument, versus the skill required to play in the harmonic scale with manual slide changes. I wonder if the modern horn is too....'fat' in sound to play as the composer heard it. And maybe this relates to the horn/bassoon passage you wrote of. Should it be, in fact, the reverse of modern expectations? A thinner sounding horn would create a better balance with the bassoon?

Still, what do i know!

Regards,

Alex.

Alex you are correct about a thinner sounding horn for Beethoven, and this is exactly my point. His orchestration works perfectly for the instruments of the day. The modern student is not writing for those instruments, so this has to be taken into consideration.

DG

@dpcon said:

Speaking of the 5th: How about the two clarinets doubling the violins on the most famous theme in the history of music? (1st mvt., bar 1 meas 1.) You don't really hear them per se but they're there - why? Or the entire strings distribution with the basses in unison at pitch with the cellos? Burning! And so the wonderful journey begins. So this is why I cannot recommend LvB fast enough to any student.

This is my whole point. What Beethoven heard bears very little resemblance to the performance that you would get with the VSL sample library, so I think that it should be studied when one has a better grasp of basic orchestration. You have to have a point of reference; I just don't think that Beethoven, performed with modern instruments, is the correct one for a first port of call.

Now look, I've spent far too much time typing about all this, when I should be programming Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty. [:D]

DG

@DG said:

Now look, I've spent far too much time typing about all this, when I should be programming Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty. [:D] DG

Well I'll sleep on all this but there won't be anything like a sleeping beauty involved [[;)]]

Cheers DG

Very proud indeed William. I in fact still have the 5th opened here and am looking at the twelve staffs at bar one. This is exactly why I would recommend the grand master as it is very easy to look at. Indeed at bar 18 I am already intrigued at the orchestration which shows everyone in to punctuate the half cadence. The distribution here is brilliant with oboes and bassoons married to the vlns and celli but clarinets curiously not with the violas (they have their own figure.) Flutes are 8va the oboes but all this changes on the quarter notes to bring out the tune and harmony to best effect. (I have now been absorbed in these four measure for at least 15 minutes.)
One only need to point out that the brass writing is idiomatic to the period and see how well they are punching through the texture in their ranges at forte and etc., etc.

I deleted the last response I had to DG's desecration of all human values, because my hands were shaking too hard at the keyboard to be able to type legibly. Also, the foam dripping from my mouth was beginning to short out my computer.

If you want scores for analysis, consider getting 'The New Anthology of Music' by Julia Winterson, ISBN 1901507033. It has over 60 works in full score, including cues from 'On the Waterfront', 'Planet of the Apes' and 'ET', as well as classical, vocal, ethnic, jazz and pop. There is also an accompanying multi-CD set which has (almost) every piece.

If you don't have it, I strongly recommend the Adler book and CD combination; there is also a student workbook with lots of listening, orchestrating and comprehension exercises. (Note that, if you want the answers, you have to write to the publishers and convince then you're not actually a music student trying to cheat.)

If you want a handy thesaurus of modern scoring techniques for film, I suggest getting to know the following works, all of which have both multiple recorded versions and easily-available scores:

[list:d396d4b024]The Planets by Holst
Romeo and Juliet by Prokofiev
The Rite of Spring by Stravinsky
Second Symphony by Sibelius
Sixth Symphony by Vaughan Williams
Noctures by Debussy[/list:u:d396d4b024]

Also consider almost any symphonic or film score by Shostakovich, Lieutenant Kije, Alexander Nevsky and Peter and the Wolf by Prokofiev.

If you want printed scores, Dover do decent large-sized reprints that easily tolerate being annotated without obscuring the score. Here are a few I have within arms length, with ISBNs:

[list:d396d4b024]048623861X Tchaikovsky's 4th, 5th and 6th Symphonies
0486260348 Beethoven's 5th, 6th and 7th Symphonies
048624749X Dvorak's 8th and 9th ('From the new world') Symphonies
0486244415 Debussy's Noctures, La Mer and Prelude a l'apres-midi d'un faune
0486247341 Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade[/list:u:d396d4b024]

You can also pick up lots of fairly cheap, good-condition scores by Eulenberg or Boosey & Hawkes on eBay.

If you don't mind printing your own, you can download scads of public-domain scores from the International Music Score Library Project.

You can also get some scores by Aaron Copland from the Library of Congress's web site.

Just look at Beethoven's 3rd, 5th and 9th. Debussy's La Mer, Jeux and Images, Mahler's 2nd, 6th and 9th, and the Tchaikovsky 6th.

You will learn everything there is to know about orchestration.

@William said:

I deleted the last response I had to DG's desecration of all human values, because my hands were shaking too hard at the keyboard to be able to type legibly. Also, the foam dripping from my mouth was beginning to short out my computer.

Spoilsport. [:D]

DG

Daphnis et Chloe (Ravel)
Senssemaya (Revueltas)
The Strauss tone poems