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  • Study Scores

    Hey guys..

    Need some help in getting started with analysing scores. I am fairly new to notation, scoring etc.

    But I think its time for me to dig into some proper scores.

    Can people suggest any study scores (and where to get them if you can)?

    Also some film scores worth looking at - even if just for how its all laid out and for orcehstration of course. I think this is the only way to really learn how its done.

    I know there are John Williams Signature edition scores from Hal Leonard and I found a web site in the US where they are selling quite a few of them.

    Any other scores? Even if its classical. I am hoping these scores are arranged in concert pitch and just how they are recorded - so that I can correct my sight reading and understand how the notated effect is produced aurally.

    Any help will be much appreciated.

    Thanks!

    Best,
    Tanuj.

  • Without wishing to disagree with Alex, I think that the Beethoven style of orchestration has flaws with modern instruments, and it is easy to fall into traps if it is used as a model. I agree that the part writing in contrapuntal passages is pretty good and mostly the chord spacing works, but I would recommend looking at Tchaikovsky scores, which, to me, have all the good hallmarks of "classical" orchestration, but are more appropriate to the present day needs of an orchestra. Obviously things have moved on since then, but it is a good start IMO.

    DG

  • Tanuj,
    I sat back and had a think, and it occured to me that you've been incredible enthusiastic on a consistent basis since you arrived here. I admire that in people, and stepping back to my own past and the lifetime enthusiasm i've had for writing and playing music, i offer the following, as a personal reflection, and possibly a source of humour for you and my fellow colleagues here.

    As one who was fairly easily embarrassed as a youth, and decidely uncertain when it came to dealing with the opposite sex (my my how things have changed, lol), i found refuge in music. My grandfather would play me classical recordings on an old gramophone, and despite the variations in speed that came with such equipment, i learnt to enjoy a wide variety of music, from many composers. His favourites were the russians, and that tends to stay with me today, although Beethoven 'spoke' to me the most, and he is my most listened to, and admired muse. I've always had an enthusiasm for knowledge, and i consider the art of learning a fine way of keeping the mind sharp, and active.
    But, there were times when the fear of getting into an embarrassing situation, would hold me back, and sometimes cruel and cynical comments from others would prevent me from pursuing some new line of reference. I entered the conservatory as a young man who wanted to learn as much as i could without restraint, but fearful of the potential for embarrassment, and it took a little while before i realised that the comments and cynicism of others were simply devices to hold me back, or put me down. When i reached that moment of awareness, then the sky was literally the limit, and i dismissed any cynicism with the contempt it deserved, from those who, by acting in this way were acknowledging, their own limitations, in both talent and determination. I could often be found in the conservatory library, late into the evening, thoroughly enjoying myself as i searched for more knowledge, and when the derisory comments came, i simply ignored them and continued on, as i considered my life my own, and not subject to the declarations or limitations of others.
    When portable cassette recorders came out in a size i could carry in a pocket (albit a large one!) i carefully recorded all my records, tapes (reel to reel) and eight tracks onto cassette. This was a freedom i'd been searching for, as every waking moment that i wasn't studying, gigging, and breathing, i'd listen to a selected piece, score in hand, and work to make that connection i spoke of in the previous post. There were mant times on a gig when in a break, i'd find a quiet spot to sit, and do this, and i can remember on more than one occasion, when the other band members would have to search for me so we could start the next set!
    Planes, trains, and buses, it didn't matter, i'd always have two or three scores at hand, plenty of manuscript, the appropriate cassettes, and what seemed a year's supply of batteries wherever i went. Not only a healthy supply of study materials, but good for staying shape as well!

    I guess what i'm rambling towards saying is, we're only here once. (I'm not counting on stem cell research just yet.) And every moment offers the chance to do nothing or something. And there are people here and elsewhere who, bluntly, have information that you want. Once i got past the shy youth experience (Things have DEFINITELY changed!) i asked questions of those who had that information. I was fortunate enough to play in orchestras before an accident, and i took more than one string player to lunch with the intent of getting as much information as i could out of their heads, and into mine. They took it in good spirit, and i found most to be enthusiastic in sharing their perceptions, and techniques. I would take something i'd written, and they would cast an eye over it, offering points to consider, and highlighting potential issues from a player's perspective.
    This is strictly personal, but i consider the pursuit of knowledge a noble cause, and as corny as it sounds, i would, and still, don't place any unnecessary obstacle in the way of that pursuit, including emotive responses to the prods and barbs of others, or being afraid or reluctant to ask questions for fear of embarrassment, that may hold me back in this marvellous journey through life.

    Having enjoyed reading yours and others posts asking for information with the enthusiasm and determination i admire, i respectfully pass to you one piece of advice that I learnt early, and which has served me extremely well in my modest lifetime.

    "Don't let anything or anyone get in your way, through intent or accident, in reaching for the stars."
    Aspiration is measured by ourselves, not the benchmarks others think we should have.

    I wish you and all my colleagues here every success in whatever you do,

    Alex.

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    @DG said:

    Without wishing to disagree with Alex, I think that the Beethoven style of orchestration has flaws with modern instruments, and it is easy to fall into traps if it is used as a model. I agree that the part writing in contrapuntal passages is pretty good and mostly the chord spacing works, but I would recommend looking at Tchaikovsky scores, which, to me, have all the good hallmarks of "classical" orchestration, but are more appropriate to the present day needs of an orchestra. Obviously things have moved on since then, but it is a good start IMO.

    DG


    What?
    Hold still while i load the elephant gun!

    Seriously, you may well be right my friend, as i don't write for film and image as a first intent or purpose.

    Now i have to go and lie down.

    Regards,

    Alex Van Shockedhoven.

  • I see the don't study Beethoven for orchestration edict as been issued. I completely understand it but think it is not really any kind of issue and even misguided. As Alex said there is a clarity that really let's you into the music and orchestration in general. Also orchestration is composition so why not study the best. In fact I've studied all the greats for twenty-five years and would say Beethoven is unsurpassed by a single soul as an orchestrator (the Ninth!) Yet it's true he didn't orchestrate as the modern school as DG suggests - but that's a good thing because that would have completely changed his sound.

    As somoneone who orchestrates professionally and started out studying Beethoven symphonies I can say you will only learn and learn by studying this peerless master. It will make studying Tchaikovsky and Mahler and Ravel etc., that much easier.

  • As someone else who orchestrates professionally, I still think that it can be mistake to study the orchestration of Beethoven, and think that this is the way it should be these days. The instruments were so different than modern instruments, that there are many traps that someone not initiated into the reasons behind Ludwig's orchestrations could fall into. The orchestral tutti is one simple example of them.....!

    DG

  • It couldn't possibly be a mistake to study Beethoven. His examples are in every orchestration book I know of. Your making the leap that one would automatically orchestrate identically like him. Wagner who's orchestration technique is everywhere today studied him as did Tchaikovsky, Mahler and virtually every composer that followed him. None of them sound like him or even orchestrated like him or each other for that matter. I can't name two composers who orchestrate identically.

    You are saying, study Tchaikovsky and not Beethoven? I am saying study them both. This is a mistake? That seems like a spurious argument in the extreme.

    edit: A quick glance at the Adler, Kennen and Piston books shows a ton of examples from Beethoven so I would be interested to know where you differ from these guys.

  • Also DG the Tutti is what Beethoven is often sighted for as a master of. Just because he adjusted for instrument limitations of the day isn't a stumbling block to the general idea. The student just has to apprehend this and in fact orchestration books always point out how he overcame these problems. It's just this type of thinking that is of huge benefit because problem solving is a huge part of orchestrating. To get inside the mind of a great master is precisely the idea (imho) so to skip Beethoven in this regard would be the real mistake.

  • All right, I am editing this again in order to try and be respectful, but it is difficult when someone says something as wrong as "don't study Beethoven for orchestration."

    Beethoven invented modern orchestration. All orchestrators copy him, either directly, or through the others who did before them. Including Tchaikovsky who worshipped him.

    So not to study Beethoven is simply to be completely ignorant.

  • No one in all of music history has surpassed the Eroica in orchestration. And that is only his 3rd symphony. And the string quartets? Forget it. No one CAN to this day write like that for strings.

    So go ahead, study all the copies, and ignore the original.

    makes a lot of sense. [8-)]

  • Well I didn't mean to start a war but I will say that I began to talk about LvB's string writing as singular in the literature but deleted it as too long a post. Many people seem to exclude writing for strings as orchestration in some way which I have never understood. LvB is to me relentlessly astonishing in this regard. The opening strings of the slow mvmt of the ninth seem so unconventional as to be wrong in some theoretic way but the sound is perfect. The polyphonic writing when the Ode to Joy tune is first presented stands as perhaps the pinnacle of the artform.

  • Right, I've recovered, and put the elephant gun away.

    And, i watched an old film here late last night, for which Shostakovich did the music. Delightful, to put it mildly, and i could hear both LVB and Tchaikovsky in the work, if we were to make a comparison. (Even Mozart gets a run, as this was a historical setting, and a particular formal dance scene showed Dmitri's mastery of more than two or three styles of writing.)
    I will stick to my guns here with LVB. For a foundation, if one were to search for a purely study perspective, LVB still has much to say, and teach. This is strictly a personal opinion, and i will reiterate my preference for for the maestro, as one who has the most profound effect on me, in general. The texture of space between parts in the Quartets is a part in itself, and has proved a formidable study for me, as i continue to learn.

    In relation to film, and if we were to stick to the last ten years or so, I think much of LVB's orchestrative structure has been ignored, in favour of the later styles of Stravinski, etc... That may be ok, but we've waxed lyrical here quite a few times about the merits or otherwise of today's film scoring, and it would be fair to say, i'm less than enthused with the result. And i will, on reflection defend Daryl here, just a little (lol!), as Tchaikovsky's string writing has to be part of any research and study in writing for image.

    Personally, LVB taught me two things immediately, those being part writing, and the power of silence. In addition, his mastery of syncopation speaks for itself, and as Daryl wisely pointed out, the contrapunctal instinct is worthy of any study program, be it formal, or in my case, a lifetime enjoyment.

    Tanuj, it seems you have quite a bit to get you started, and i'd like to add Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov to this list. His melodic writing is excellent, and in structural context, he creates images in music that may prove extremely useful in writing for film. Nikolai, IMHO, creates wonderful 'stories in sound', and is part of my present study program for this reason, among others.
    (Mlada, The Golden Cockerel, Sheherezade, etc...)
    In addition, and in the same vein, Borodin is a true master of the russian form, and there is much of his thematic material in film scores today. He's often ignored in 'declarations of popularity', but i consider him a real heavyweight in the development of modern musical form.

    Another three roubles worth!

    Regards,

    Alex.

  • Hey you guys; who stole your lunch money? I'm only trying to point out that someone who, by their own admission, knows very little about formal orchestration, can be sold a dummy by studying Beethoven. I never said that he shouldn't be studied, however, I still maintain that one has to be careful. There are so many classic examples of horn writing (for example), that were fudged due to the limitations of the instruments of the day, that a rookie orchestrator should not copy. There are also things in Tchaikovsky that are unnecessary is today's musical climate, but I think that as a first entry point, there is more in common with modern orchestration that Beethoven. feel free to disagree; I'm only voicing an opinion, and by definition, that can't be wrong.

    DG

  • No question as to disagreeing because I would point to Beethoven for anyone who wanted to see great horn writing. I do agree with Adler who uses LvB 6th as his second example. Kennan sighting the horn in the 5th as dramatic and arresting. Piston sighting the Pno Cto 5 saying the natural horn, with all it's limitations had a vital and lasting influence on melody and harmony. This style can be heard in Goldsmith's writing in Patton (my favorite rookie) so I don't understand any impractical or errant influence upon a student.

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    @dpcon said:

    No question as to disagreeing because I would point to Beethoven for anyone who wanted to see great horn writing. I do agree with Adler who uses LvB 6th as his second example. Kennan sighting the horn in the 5th as dramatic and arresting. Piston sighting the Pno Cto 5 saying the natural horn, with all it's limitations had a vital and lasting influence on melody and harmony. This style can be heard in Goldsmith's writing in Patton (my favorite rookie) so I don't understand any impractical or errant influence upon a student.

    Well let me remind you of a famous example then. Beethoven 5th Symphony, 1st movement, Recapitulation of the 2nd subject. The Horns play the first 4 notes and the Bassoons play the next 2. Obviously, this is because the notes weren't available to the Horns for the whole phrase. Now let's transfer that to a sample rendition. OK, a good musician would naturally make the volume of the Bassoons match the Horns and thereby get an incorrect view of the relative dynamic ranges of these instruments.

    My point is that unlike William (pointing a gnarled finger...!), I think that studying the imitators (poor Tchaikovsky) is often better than studying the Masters, for a view of the safest way to do things. When the knowledge of what is correct has been assimilated, then it is the time to look at how the innovators break the rules, and why it works.

    DG

  • Daryl,
    I'm gonna sound like a heretic here, but i like the horn/bassoon transition, without reinforcing the bassoons. I always thought the modern propensity for doubling this part missed the point.
    I'm going with Dave on the great horn parts (and Brass). The beginning of the last movement of the fifth (including the simple build up) gets me in the loins every time. What a great way to start anything. And let's not forget the fear Beethoven still instills in Horn players, with the sections in the seventh.

    You made a good point about the limitations of the instrument though. And horns in particular. But i wonder if we've gained anything playing Beethoven on a chromatic instrument, versus the skill required to play in the harmonic scale with manual slide changes. I wonder if the modern horn is too....'fat' in sound to play as the composer heard it. And maybe this relates to the horn/bassoon passage you wrote of. Should it be, in fact, the reverse of modern expectations? A thinner sounding horn would create a better balance with the bassoon?

    Still, what do i know!

    Regards,

    Alex.

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    @DG said:

    Well let me remind you of a famous example then. Beethoven 5th Symphony, 1st movement, Recapitulation of the 2nd subject. The Horns play the first 4 notes and the Bassoons play the next 2. Obviously, this is because the notes weren't available to the Horns for the whole phrase. DG


    Actually the bassoons play the entire phrase with the horns in on the sfz (not intending to quibble here) and yes it's famous and due to the limitations of the day. Many conductors (since the valve horn arrived) simply have the horns play the whole phrase. But this hardly negates the myriad of treasures in the piece to be studied and in fact it should be a joy to the student to learn such things (it was to me when my conducting teacher pointed this passage out to me 25 years ago.)

    Speaking of the 5th: How about the two clarinets doubling the violins on the most famous theme in the history of music? (1st mvt., bar 1 meas 1.) You don't really hear them per se but they're there - why? Or the entire strings distribution with the basses in unison at pitch with the cellos? Burning! And so the wonderful journey begins. So this is why I cannot recommend LvB fast enough to any student.

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    @hermitage59 said:


    You made a good point about the limitations of the instrument though. And horns in particular. But i wonder if we've gained anything playing Beethoven on a chromatic instrument, versus the skill required to play in the harmonic scale with manual slide changes. I wonder if the modern horn is too....'fat' in sound to play as the composer heard it. And maybe this relates to the horn/bassoon passage you wrote of. Should it be, in fact, the reverse of modern expectations? A thinner sounding horn would create a better balance with the bassoon?

    Still, what do i know!

    Regards,

    Alex.

    Alex you are correct about a thinner sounding horn for Beethoven, and this is exactly my point. His orchestration works perfectly for the instruments of the day. The modern student is not writing for those instruments, so this has to be taken into consideration.

    DG

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    @dpcon said:


    Speaking of the 5th: How about the two clarinets doubling the violins on the most famous theme in the history of music? (1st mvt., bar 1 meas 1.) You don't really hear them per se but they're there - why? Or the entire strings distribution with the basses in unison at pitch with the cellos? Burning! And so the wonderful journey begins. So this is why I cannot recommend LvB fast enough to any student.

    This is my whole point. What Beethoven heard bears very little resemblance to the performance that you would get with the VSL sample library, so I think that it should be studied when one has a better grasp of basic orchestration. You have to have a point of reference; I just don't think that Beethoven, performed with modern instruments, is the correct one for a first port of call.

    Now look, I've spent far too much time typing about all this, when I should be programming Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty. [:D]

    DG

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    @DG said:

    Now look, I've spent far too much time typing about all this, when I should be programming Tchaikovsky's Sleeping Beauty. [:D] DG


    Well I'll sleep on all this but there won't be anything like a sleeping beauty involved [[;)]]

    Cheers DG