If it were just extra samples and a perf_tool update then, yes, I suppose that today's release from VSL could be called an 'upgrade', but VI seems to me to be a significant leap forward in

a) number of articulations
b) numer of instruments
c) quality of the aforementioned
d) how we use them.

Users on this forum [including me] have complained about the cumbersome Performance Tool for months and asked for a solution. Every computer programmer here [including me] since this afternoon has boggled at the number of man-hours that must have went into the VI's design and programming.. Genius and labour deserve a reward, we asked for this, let's pay for it.

Or else don't pay for it. You've used VSL and seen the videos, you know exactly the first class product you get for the money. To afford even a bit of this i'm gonna need a second job for a while but I'd pay double if that was the cost, but to complain?

I reccomend http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-161 for a budget music library upgrade that sounds inexpensive.

@david ender said:

...every user, whether new or already in possession of one of our old Libraries, pays the same price for the Standard VI Libraries. The difference is that when you upgrade to the Extended Library you just have to pay a very moderate handling fee - after which, you have about double the sample content and numerous additional articulations to work with.

I must say I find this whole thing very confusing....but then again I don't think I'm the only one.

Say for example that I bought the "old" Horizon Solo Strings, why not just have a cheaper upgrade price...one that is the standard VI Solo Strings minus the already owned Horizon Solo Strings price...and then have the same upgrade price for old and new customers alike when upgrading from VI standard Solo Strings to the extended version?

A customer who bought a VSL product some time ago, should not have to pay a cent more (not even at this immediate point in time) for a product than a brand new customer has to...if anything, old customers should benefit more from the situation than new ones...not the other way round.

Also seems to me that with the system you're describing, an old customer will have to upgrade further to the extended version to "break even" so to speak, whereas a brand new customer only has to pay for the standard version first and then can upgrade to the extended version at whatever point in time he decides.

In effect, this would mean that an "old" customer not only is "forced" to buy the extended version, but he will also not receive any immediate benefit from already having bought and owning the product when upgrading to the standard version.

If this is the case, then it is not a very good way to treat old and loyal customers. Loyal customers should not have their loyalty tested further by being forced into more upgrades to get back what they already payed for, but rather receive immediate benefits from loyalty already shown and proved in the past.

If there is any effect in all this that in any way means that an old customer is put in a less beneficial situation (viewed in both time aspect and money) than that of a brand new customer, then it is IMO unacceptable.

Now, I might have misunderstood this whole thing and if I did, then please accept my apologies.

Rodney

I think the thing that most are missing is that these are not just the same samples being used over again - in order for the VI library to work within the new tool (interface) they carry more in the file. Not just 24 bit, but other metadata that gets used within the new tool. I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems that a lot of people are not realizing this is a new set of instruments regardless if based on some of the same samples.

That being said, however, I can certainly empathize with those who have made such a hefty purchase and find themselves needing to re-invest in the library again.

It's like when Macs went OSX - I had to repay for all my software to be upgraded to OSX. Did I hate doing it? Yes - it cost me tons of money - but it's the price of being a pro in the graphics/music/video industry.

I don't want to rub anyone the wrong way - just wanted to offer another perspective. I only wish these "holiday" prices were in say, February because I've got most of my money tied up in gifts for others and travel.

@Banquo said:

Genius and labour deserve a reward, we asked for this, let's pay for it.

I've lots of respect for the genius, but, strictly speaking, genius has no price. So I won't pay for it (basically because I wouldn't ever have enough money)

[:)]

Loyal users of this library are forced to reinvest in this company as if this is a new company launching it's inagural venture with no established customer base. That is a dangerous precedent for software companies to establish. Now we must expect every so-called upgrade to be a full priced, start over re-reinvestment. And the con goes on, . . . [:@]

I'm not entitled to say what VSL should do, they are obviously free to decide their marketing policy and see their profit curve flying high or sinking in glory like the Titanic, with the orchestra playing until the last.

For many years, I regularly purchased the upgrades of Finale, but any single upgrade never costed like the brand-new package (the upgrade costed approx 70 or 80% less, as far as I can remember, and IMO one cannot seriously say that in Finale there is less engineering involved than in VSL). But if you decided not to upgrade to "Finale 97", say, then you would have to pay for "Finale 98" upgrade approx. twice.

One could even object about this upgrade policy (you had to pay also for the previous version you never used); but, to me, it sounds more "human" than VSL's.

But, as I said, I'm not entitled to say what VSL (which, of course, remains a great library even if I don't buy it) should do. But if they will decide to offer a more "humanized" upgrade path, ossia a less jagged one, I will not feel less than happy...

[;)]

@orson said:

That would mean if I had waited a few days I would have paid about EUR 1.090,- for the full VI package. Now I had to pay EUR 815,- for Horizon Chamber Strings + EUR 495,- for the upgrade/extension + handling fee (let's say EUR 30,-). Equals EUR 1340,-. That is EUR 250,- more than what new customers have to pay for the whole package. That means if I had waited a few days I would have paid 250,- LESS, correct?
That's not what I would call an upgrade. I think it would be fair that the upgrade for old customers would not cost more over all compared to new customers.

Maybe my calculations are wrong...

Regards

Christian explained this to me in a post elsewhere and yes, people who've just bought Horizon products are perhaps the only ones who… well, you don’t actually lose out, you're just not winners on the same scale as some others.

But remember, although you do end up paying €250 more than someone buying just the new VI products (std + ext.), you keep all your Horizon samples and licence as WELL as the new stuff. Basically you pay a bit more but you get a lot more. If you go for the extended content, you’ll’ve paid €250 for your Horizon CS set. If you paid €815 I’m guessing you think the samples are worth €250!! Plus you can use your Horizon samples right now, no waiting until January.

Yes, the biggest winners are going to be people who buy the Horizon series now, at sale prices (where's my wallet? [:D]). I know this will seem but small consolation but you're certainly not being ripped off. Unfortunately it IS impossible to please all of the people all of the time. Especially with something this good.

I'm also one of the so-called "losers" by this whole pricing scheme. I bought the FE about 2 1/2 years go, then upgraded to the Pro Ed/i]. I apparently have to pay more for the whole [i]Symph. Cube than someone buying it for the first time. I don't feel ripped off at all, rather the contrary: I've had 2½ years' use of these wonderful samples and it's perfectly reasonable to pay for that. I don't think we're being asked to pay an excessive amount, either.

An overall comment to end with: some people seem to be seriously unhappy. I think in a lot of cases this is due to confusion (we human beings often get angry when we're confused, isn't Vienna the home of modern psychiatry? [:)]). The one criticism (constructive, I hope) I'd make is that the communication has not always been terribly clear. The sooner the Calculator is up and running the better - its non-availability has compounded the confusion, of course.

VSL have been victims of their own success; when they designed the VIP programme they couldn't've known that 2-3 years later they'd be selling such a vast range of products for various budgets to such a large customer base. Back then they must've assumed they'd be essentially a premium manufacturer, a bit like Ferrari. I don’t think you get any discount if you upgrade to a new car (though you can sell it, you're not going to get anywhere near what you paid, are you?) It’s not fair to blame them for needing to restructure their pricing policy. And, to their credit, they have clearly made huge efforts to stay as close to the spirit of the VIP programme as possible. Just go and make a few comparisons and see how many other companies, in any businesses, are offering anything like this. Come on, credit where it's due. Yes, some people will do better out of this than others (as always in life) but nobody is being ripped off.

Oh and how many other companies this successful can you think of where you can still moan to the boss and know he's listening?

Nick

Banquo,

I think I've made my point very clear. I am convinced that VSL is the greatest library at the market currently and that the new VI development is something everybody in the industry has been waiting for. It's a giant leap forward to realism and VSL has set standards again. But I am still convinced that the price for loyal customers is set too high IN COMPARISM to somebody who is jumping on the boat right now! I don't want to go into hairsplitting if it is an update, upgrade or whatsoever. And I don't think that a 24-bit version of samples you already own is something what you would call "new".
Anyway, I guess that old customers will have to bite the bullet...arghh!
[:'(]
Peace

Having worked with the "updated" vn I can say not only does it sound to my ears better than the old one in solo strings (thicker, richer etc) but the capabilities are so vast. i am not limited to any tempo slow or fast or ungodly fast, it all just happens. The extended stuff is not just a small upgrade, it really changes the face of the entire instrument and it's capabilities along with the new VI. I for one cannot wait till the String sections come out and i can play arpeggios and scale lines at speeds that make all other libs sound like synths (yes the violin can do this already).

If you need a comparison, though this is not fair to VSL try this.

Remember when a new roland synth came out. a year and a half later they would come out with a new and improved version with 4X the capabilites for a little less than twice what you paid for the original. you could now sell your old machine for real cheap or keep it as another box. this is essentially happenning here except Roland did not care whether you were a user or not, here you get benefits.

Craig .. fair points from you.. but


i do remember buying into VSL some 2 +1/2 years ago with the promise we'd be looked after as VIP customers..

it certainly looks like it's being shot a 2 finger salute from where i'm reading..I'm a little appauled at the change in stance.. that new customers are getting a better deal than us bods upgrading from the orginal base samples .. 1st ed/ pro ed/ horizon ..


( give me time to digest more though..i've only been catching up on it all this morning) .. maybe we'll be prooved wrong when the discount calculator is worked out.. [8-)]

There are a lot of "new" forum user that seems to complain about the upgrade policy, they've all registered by the 26th november.
How comes you havn't showed up before if you already bought a big VSL package ?
Quite weird to read someone complaining as it's his first post…

@Laurent said:

There are a lot of "new" forum user that seems to complain about the upgrade policy, they've all registered by the 26th november.
How comes you havn't showed up before if you already bought a big VSL package ?
Quite weird to read someone complaining as it's his first post…

Agreed. Hard to take serious. What is however worrying is when old, loyal VSL followers start complaining. That to me hints that something, somewhere is wrong [:)]

@Laurent said:

There are a lot of "new" forum user that seems to complain about the upgrade policy, they've all registered by the 26th november.
How comes you havn't showed up before if you already bought a big VSL package ?
Quite weird to read someone complaining as it's his first post…

Agreed. Hard to take serious. What is however worrying is when old, loyal VSL followers start complaining. That to me hints that something, somewhere is wrong [:)]

Then again, it might just as well just be a case of the old "no news is good news" syndrome. People have so far been very happy with VSL, but this matter has made them feel the need to express their views.

Not saying it IS so....just that it might. [[;)]]

R

i'd just like to mention that there has always been a holiday pricing and summer specials where you can purchase a library for a reduced price. of course someone who bought a pro edition say september will have mixed feelings now, but i think you don't really expect us to announce *there will be a significant discount march 2007*, don't you?
christian

Of course not [:)] But thats not the primary complaint though?

@cm said:

...but i think you don't really expect us to announce *there will be a significant discount march 2007*, don't you?
christian

No, but on the other hand, not two months have passed since the end of the summer sale until the beginning of this one. Speaking for myself and being a student, I can honestly say I feel like a complete sucker having just bought the Opus bundle (not included in summer sale) and thus effectively thrown a difference of over €300 down the drain thank you very much.

You say we shouldn't expect you to make any premature announcements, but that obviously didn't stop you from announcing that this sale will be the "last major" sale. [[;)]]

I realize it's just business and all that, but for the love of God why didn't you include the Opus bundle in the summer sale when you did now? [:P]

Rodney AKA Opus bundle sucker

opus has been offered for a reduced price even before the summer sale (please see the original price displayed now as *full price*), so there was no option to include them into any further discounting schema
christian

@cm said:

opus has been offered for a reduced price even before the summer sale (please see the original price displayed now as *full price*), so there was no option to include them into any further discounting schema
christian

Well it's even cheaper now isn't it? You could have done the exact thing you did now but during the summer sale, but just set it to 30% of the original "full price" just as you did now. What's the difference?

Obviously, if you could set such a low price for the Opus products now, you might as well have done it in the summer sale as well (30%).

R

Some reaction From a NEW User !

I just registering today ! Because i never had problem to clarify (Read the forum was enough,always a answer to my question). I prefer work than chat on forum (sorry).

I am a Noob who Own 1st / Pro / and a lot of Horizons series !
My mail to registering on the forum is the same that for registering my products, and it will be easelly to verifie for the moderators ! I don't agree with upgrade policy ! Can i do it ?? without justify on regular of this forum ???

Thx

(And again sorry for my poor english [:O]ops: )

@Nobody said:

Some reaction From a NEW User !

I just registering today ! Because i never had problem to clarify (Read the forum was enough,always a answer to my question). I prefer work than chat on forum (sorry).

I am a Noob who Own 1st / Pro / and a lot of Horizons series !
My mail to registering on the forum is the same that for registering my products, and it will be easelly to verifie for the moderators ! I don't agree with upgrade policy ! Can i do it ?? without justify on regular of this forum ???

Thx

(And again sorry for my poor english [:O]ops: )

Hello and welcome! [:D]

R