THe 2.7 is a good machine and very fast. The main issue with that wil be RAM and hard drives not processing especially if you are prepared to do your final mix with reverb after you have finished playing all your parts in (increase the buffer size in the audio driver).

The second lot of G5's came out because they hit a barrier with the chip's and couldn't get them past 90nm circuits and that meant no speed increase, the dual cores on the other hand, are a totally different ball game, I don't think there will be any significant delays in those coming out. I don't think the intel's will come out for another 6 months, and they won't be really usable for our kind of work for another 3 months after that. At the end of the day, if you need the machine now, get it, if you can wait for the dual cores but only need a 2.7, wait , and pick up a 2.7 cheap or even better someone like me who will sell their 2.0 with 2 years warrantee on it for even cheaper even though it's practically brand new. Or you can pay for the dual cores, and have a very fast computer.

Miklos

I have to agree. The 2x2.5 is the first Mac I've had that really feels like you're not smacking it around by using it for this stuff. It loads about 2-1/2 Gigas (not GB, Gigas) worth of VSL reliably if you have enough RAM, and it's very fast. EXS loads really quickly if you use Redmatica's EXSManager to samplemerge the instruments, and you can run other toys (e.g. NI at the same time without any problems.

You'll still be annoyed when they come out with a faster machine before you unpack the carton, but it's still a sexy piece of kit, as PaulR would say.

[6]

Miklos, why are you complicating my life? [[;)]]


You're giving me something to think about. I don't know how much more thinking my brains could handle. I want to start playing with my toys soon! [8o|]

Yes I know the feeling. Well, the question is, you want to write NOW not later. So buy a G5 now, why don't you buy a second hand 2.0 now, get going, learn the system get comfortable, (it is certainly capable) in a few months you'll easily be at the point of saying "I need something faster" at which point, you can buy a dual core system, sell the 2.0 (or keep it as a node if you want) pay the difference, probably not greater than your depreciation on your otherwise new present system, and be at the top of the game AND get to play with your toys sooner. If you do that, use an old screen for your 2.0, and buy a new one with a warratee for the new system you get later.

Or is all this just me messing with your head [6]

Miklos. [8-)]

Miklos,

The countdown has begun, I must take action before the end of the week. I'll have to go with the dual 2.7 immediately since these are important projects, I fear overload problems. But I need some help with a few things:

Let's recapitulate my needs and then can you tell me if my specifications are ok?

1-I want to use in RAM: 80-100 tracks, plus effects.
2-I will be using performance intruments and many articulations.
3-This will be used for major productions, I must minimize set backs.
4-I will be mixing, but not necessarily the final thing.
5-I will always be working with a film track.
6-I will be using the "Complete Orchestral Package" and possibly add a few other things such as Choirs, Exotic percussions.

Is this going to do?


Specifications

Dual 2.7GHz PowerPC G5
4GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 4x1GB
250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
ATI Radeon 9650 w/256MB DDR SDRAM
Apple Cinema Display (20" flat panel)
16x SuperDrive double-layer (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
Mac OS X - U.S. English
AppleCare Protection Plan for Power Mac (w/ or w/o Display)

AND WHAT ABOUT:

-Do I need this, or is this an option for the SATA RAID? Fibre Channel PCI-X Card (w/SFP-SFP cable) (I'm confused on this one!)

-Could more GB make a big difference for my needs? 400GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm

-Logic Express preinstalled OR Pro Logic7

Thanks a lot.

Guy

I'm humbled that you asked. When you say 80 to 100 tracks I presume you mean 80 to 100 tracks not 80 - 100 instruments IE you're talking about say 40 - 50 stereo instances of EXS with various tracks for different keyswitched articulations within those instruments? OR are you talking 80 - 100 stereo EXS instruments all playing at once. If it's the latter, hmmm, I think the processors could handle it, but I don't think that hard drive or memory will, especially not with what you're talking about. The way to get around the ram limitations of logic are:

1. EXS Manager - a must have merge your library
2. some kind of RAID system, I have 2X250 gb FW800 drives which works for me and my budget which is low. However you sound like you're getting decent work so I suggest a PCI SATA raid system this means a PCI card in your mac probably with dual bus connecting you to at least 4 X 250 Gb drives (I mean at least as in the 4X drives not as in the 250Gb drives, in fact you could have 160Gb drives that would be fine). Stripe them toether in a type 0 array that means they appear as one drive and spread the information equally over the four drives, so if you lose one, you lose all the data - that's fine since you're using a sample library keep all your original material on those drives if you have modified material that you can't restore from DVD's if a drive dies on you store that stuff on another drive - this set up is your speed set up for loading and streaming your large sample merged files from disk - then in EXS in your virtual memory settings you can set the disk speed to fast and your hard disk recording activity to less, that means less RAM usage, more "open" tracks (unfrozen active tracks). If you have this hard disk set up, I think you should have no problems - coupled with retaining your second (you're going to need it) 7200RPM SATA internal drive for audio tracks and primarily, freeze tracks (store your project files on that drive and the freeze tracks should automatically get put there by logic) you should be able to run what you're talking about. You *may* need to freeze a couple of legato perf instruments now and then, but you should be able to freeze up to 32 stereo tracks on the one drive without running into problems. You should be able to run a video track but you might need to recompress it into a low res file that isn't too processor hungry for example I wouldn't want to run any DV format files through logic (can you do that?) but you get the idea, simple files that are there for timing only, and then you can export your final stuff with the high quality file.

You can certainly mix on this set up, but my point was if you are playing the parts in live which I presume you are, then you're going to want to use a setting of 128 on your buffer settings, which means you will get almost no latency when you play an instrument (so you can hear what you are playing!), however, this is very processor intensive to do - no probs for a 2.7 ghz but once you start running 80 - 100 tracks (should be no problem once again) but then turn on altiverb or something like that, you're going to get stuttering and you're probably going to need to drop your buffer settings down to 256 (still playable) or better, 512 or 1024 (at least 1 second delay from what you play to what you hear) which is great for mixing - you can start loading up your altiverbs etc (It's like finding you have all this horsepower left) but you can't continue to play in tracks.

If I need to play in more parts when I'm at that stage, I just ALT+click bypass all the altiverbs, pretty quick to do, reload with the 128 buffer setting, play and parts and reverse that to get back to mixing.

I definately recommend Logic Pro over Express for what you are talking about I don't even think Logic express will run that many tracks by default.

4 gigs is good but 4.5 is better remember 3.7 is the sample limitation for Logic, the system still needs RAM itself and there you have a recommended minimum of 512mb to avoid swapping, and even then, don't run other apps at the same time. For the system you are getting, I think it wouldn't hurt you to get another 2X 256 simms.

Lastly, Fibre channel apple raid WOW if you can afford that, go for it, but it's pretty pricey, the SATA RAID gives good performance and reliability and is affordable for what you get. I don't think you can buy SATA raid off the apple store - are you buying from the apple store - well I don't know about where you live but here that's about 10% more than what I'd normally have to pay in a shop so shop around and there will be someone to help you out with the SATA RAID set up - honestly take as much time as you can to look into that part of things too because I can't help you out having no experience in actually owning one, I've just researched it enough to know that at this price point it's the best thing to go for for what we want. As far as I know, avoid firewire set ups for RAID and avoid Lacie RAIDED drives, they are cheap alternatives and don't give the same performance, if you want the real deal SATA RAID or apple raid of course. If you want to start out without spending too much on this, you can buy a firewire 800 PCI card (don't use the bus in the mac for this has to be a seperate bus) and buy 2 firewire 800 drives software raid them together and see how your performance is but from what you say you're after I can almost guarantee it won't be fast enough.

Finally GOOD LUCK with that system sounds awesome.

All the Best,
Miklos.

Miklos,

Once more thanks for all that valuable information. [:)]

First thing is, that indeed it's 80-100 instruments, 1 inst. or articulation per track.

Second, There is too much for me to fully understand within this week.

All the setting adjustments I could take my time doing once the equipement is in front of me.

So if I want to get cooking soon I must place an order, and Canada is far...

I'm obviously getting closer to the right specification. So here's an update:


Specifications

-Dual 2.7GHz PowerPC G5
-4GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - (4x1GB) + (2 x 256) =4.5GB(Is that right? I'm feeling dopey in this one!)
-250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
-ATI Radeon 9650 w/256MB DDR SDRAM
-Apple Cinema Display (20" flat panel)
-16x SuperDrive double-layer (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
-Fibre Channel PCI-X Card (w/SFP-SFP cable) As you recommended, right?
-Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
-Mac OS X - U.S. English
-Pro Logic 7 (As you recommended)
-AppleCare Protection Plan for Power Mac (w/ or w/o Display)


Am I missing something?

Thanks!

Guy

@Guy said:

Specifications

-Dual 2.7GHz PowerPC G5
-4GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - (4x1GB) + (2 x 256) =4.5GB(Is that right? I'm feeling dopey in this one!)
-250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
-ATI Radeon 9650 w/256MB DDR SDRAM
-Apple Cinema Display (20" flat panel)
-16x SuperDrive double-layer (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
-Fibre Channel PCI-X Card (w/SFP-SFP cable) As you recommended, right?
-Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
-Mac OS X - U.S. English
-Pro Logic 7 (As you recommended)
-AppleCare Protection Plan for Power Mac (w/ or w/o Display)


Am I missing something?

Thanks!

Guy

Get 4.5 gigs.

2 x 250 gig hard drives - minimum.

What about your reverb? Altiverb 5. Space Designer is Ok but forget it in the final mix.

What about your soundcard? How you going to hear anything?

What about your monitors? Active ones would be a good idea.

What about headphones?

What about a Logic Control desk and expanders - when you're talking the number of instruments that you mention - that's going to be a must!

What about a second screen - for this or that. i.e. Avid or another favourite page of Logic?

Come on Guy - get with the programme!

[:P] [:D]

Paul, look I already have several of the things you mentioned, I've been doing this for 2 years, AND SUCCESSFULLY, so don't make me look like a monkey! I just don't have the computer and software anymore. And I'm trying to learn all this stuff now. And a 2nd screen is handy, but I got by very well with just one. I have speakers. The PC card I do need. But can you not be a jackass about it? [:D]

@Guy said:

Paul, look I already have several of the things you mentioned,

Would it not be a good idea to state what you have already then Guy?

Paul,

I am looking for everything that pertains hardware and software only, I don't think that speakers, headphones, comfortable working chair etc... athough all important, is included in that.

[H] But Guy how about a nice new BBQ?

[[:|]] No thanks, just hardware and software toys.

@Guy said:

Paul,

I am looking for everything that pertains hardware and software only, I don't think that speakers, headphones, comfortable working chair etc... athough all important, is included in that.

[H] But Guy how about a nice new BBQ?

[[:|]] No thanks, just hardware and software toys.

Would it not be a good idea to state what you already have then Guy - in terms of software and hardware?

Ok Paul,

"Nothing" No, that's not true: one USB cable.

[H] Pfah! Some looser!

@Guy said:

Ok Paul,

"Nothing"

[H] Nothing? Some looser!

No - not at all Guy. If you've got nothing then I would refer you to what has already been suggested in terms of software, hardware, monitors etc.

1 Applecare protection plan automatically covers an apple displays you buy WITH your G5, that's what is good about it because displays are very expensive to fix, so it's the same price for the warrantee with or without an apple display (good that you're getting one).

2. thats a NO to the fibre channel. I was sayng, SATA PCI card is something different. From my fairly limited knowledge, fibre channel is for the apple raid system very expensive, probably more than you're whole package is right now on it's own. I'm talking about something else it's a PCI card that runs an external connector so you can plug in a SATA RAID box a power box basicallly that houses hard drives. The best SATA PCI cards have dual bus. Now these *may* (some of them) connect by fibre channel, I don't know how they connect I haven't seen one but here's a link to what looks like a decent systemto start with and you can go from there. All I can say is, check out a few that you think look good (use google), and then search forums on the net an dread what people have been saying about these systems *recently* and maybe try the logic pro discussions at apple's site that's a good place to ask since you want it to work with logic, and of course any reviews you can find (as well as here of course if you want to start a thread just for the raid system maybe somebody here can let you know if a particular box is good or not) http://www.barefeats.com/hard41.html

IMO the hard drive aspect is vitally important, you can't run all those instruments without a decent hard drive system it just isn't going to work and all that other kit is going to go to waste. Someone correct me here if I'm wrong. So take your time and get the right thing. You're going to need at least 4 hard drives running together to get the kind of number of instruments and set up you're talking about. Don't forget, these are in addition to the two you will get installed internally, don't forget that extra second internal drive for audio projects and freeze tracks. the sample drives have to be for samples only. You copy the samples to those drives and once you've done that they should be used as read only then you'll always have a fast system.

Someone else mentioned sound hardware as well - good point, how are you going to hear all this? The mac's audio system is not really good to use for playback. I suggest a Mobile IO ULN-2 excellent quality converters, runs off the firewire cable (no power required), super nice mic pre's if you need them, otherwise it's a straight two in two out analogue, plug in your monitors and you're away, also has some digital interfaces if you need them but for your set up by the sounds of it, you just need the two analogue out's and these will provide you with very high quality one's indeed. Monitors - maybe other people on this forum can suggest those, I've had the same ones for years just some Alesis M1 Actives but I can't comment in that area I have no idea what's good, I just know my own speakers.
MIxers: hardware mixers: over rated now days I think, if you have the cash as a last thing to buy, go for it, but just get a control system and mix in your mac, like a Mackie control desk so you can control your logic faders but IMO budget wise and project wise, it's the last thing to consider because you really don't need them these days it's more of a luxury. The hard drives and sound library for example way more important.

Other than the hard drives yep, I think your specs are good.

Miklos.