Vienna Symphonic Library Forum
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  • I sort of agree with Paul on this one. At the moment i'm trying to build a set of solid soundfonts based on that principle, large sample 'collections' all operating at the same time. Some work, others don't, but the string sound is slowly improving. Like a blended tea rather than chewing on the one leaf.
    Because of the multi use opportunities of EXS in logic, i'm able to cut down the number of instruments, although RAM is always an issue.
    It's a real shame Logic won't accept articulation changes triggering samples in score mode, as a staccato or arco instant program change would certainly cut down the workload. And it would be good to be able to use a number of symbols or numbers triggering program changes that would go in a line above the stave, corresponding to the notes you've input, for example as you click the mouse or hit right or left arrow on the keyboard, it jumps to the next note. e.g. L(Leg) - 1a, S(Stac) -2a, etc. And for release samples something like LR(legR)-1b, etc. Record your line, then go to the 'articulation data line' and put in the numbers. Even if this did 95% of the work it would save time. The only task would be setting up a symbol/sample template, but surely custom maps reflective of the particular samplebase would help this along.
    I tried this in Sibelius, but bombed out more than once because of that programs non VST/AU hosting, and the nuisance of individually inputting program changes each and every time. The multi track approach for one instrument or group doesn't seem to me a time efficient way of using sample bases, and maybe a built in 'dataline' above each stave, invisible in printed form would be a quicker way. I grant some tweaking would still need to be done, but if the bulk is done automatically, we'd be getting work finished a lot quicker, and making better use of the investment.


    One thing is for sure, the next jump in technology that gives us almost unlimited Processor/Ram capability will be the one that brings large sample libraries to life, and enables us to really utilise these instruments to a level they were compiled for.

    Regards,

    Alex.

  • I've read the articles about Apple switching over to Intel & have seen the discussion boards about pros and cons of doing this, but it all has this overwhelming feeling of doom to it... sorta like if you get the new Intel machines, you'll have to purchase all-new software and MIDI or Firewire audio interfaces. Is there any danger of that happening? I don't understand the techie part of it.

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    @Kerry Muzzey said:

    I've read the articles about Apple switching over to Intel & have seen the discussion boards about pros and cons of doing this, but it all has this overwhelming feeling of doom to it... sorta like if you get the new Intel machines, you'll have to purchase all-new software and MIDI or Firewire audio interfaces. Is there any danger of that happening? I don't understand the techie part of it.


    Don,t know about that, but in the meantime we,ll see the Dual Core G5.s, 50 to 80% improvement over current G5,s.

  • Unless you know something I don't, that sounds like speculation at this point. I certainly hope it's true, but intuitively it sounds highly optimistic.

  • you should wait, because you will kill youself once apple releases the intel macs the week after you buy your g5.

  • This is a very difficult game to win. I was ready to upgrade to a G5 a year ago, and I figured I'd wait for new models that were rumored to be coming in a couple of weeks. The ones that finally arrived five months later were virtually identical to the existing ones.

  • I bought a G4 2x1.25 right when it became available (the top of the line macs always come out last) which was about a couple of months after its announcement from apple. Six or eight months later a new model was announced (2x1.4) and then the G5's the next year.

    Never felt bad about my purchase. In fact, I was happy to have jumped on board when the hardware was stable and mature. Super stable. I can run five dual layer perf_leg, seven or eight single layer perf_leg, seven dual layer sus patches, etc. etc. which totals no more than 30 tracks of VSL. I'm not even bumping CPU but my 1.5 gig of ram is taking a beating. All this Without the Redmatica tool. With exs manager I'm sure these numbers would improve.

    If you're a VSL freak than the new macs probably won't help without the exs taking the next step.

    I wouldn't want to buy the very first dual core unless the reviews and forums indicated that the hardware was trouble/bug free (adding a few more months to the wait)...

    Clark

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    @clarkcontrol said:

    I wouldn't want to buy the very first dual core unless the reviews and forums indicated that the hardware was trouble/bug free (adding a few more months to the wait)...

    Clark


    That has been my way of thinking lately, so I'll go for the dual 2.7 instead, hey! it's still not a bad machine...

  • THe 2.7 is a good machine and very fast. The main issue with that wil be RAM and hard drives not processing especially if you are prepared to do your final mix with reverb after you have finished playing all your parts in (increase the buffer size in the audio driver).

    The second lot of G5's came out because they hit a barrier with the chip's and couldn't get them past 90nm circuits and that meant no speed increase, the dual cores on the other hand, are a totally different ball game, I don't think there will be any significant delays in those coming out. I don't think the intel's will come out for another 6 months, and they won't be really usable for our kind of work for another 3 months after that. At the end of the day, if you need the machine now, get it, if you can wait for the dual cores but only need a 2.7, wait , and pick up a 2.7 cheap or even better someone like me who will sell their 2.0 with 2 years warrantee on it for even cheaper even though it's practically brand new. Or you can pay for the dual cores, and have a very fast computer.

    Miklos

  • I have to agree. The 2x2.5 is the first Mac I've had that really feels like you're not smacking it around by using it for this stuff. It loads about 2-1/2 Gigas (not GB, Gigas) worth of VSL reliably if you have enough RAM, and it's very fast. EXS loads really quickly if you use Redmatica's EXSManager to samplemerge the instruments, and you can run other toys (e.g. NI at the same time without any problems.

    You'll still be annoyed when they come out with a faster machine before you unpack the carton, but it's still a sexy piece of kit, as PaulR would say.

  • Miklos, why are you complicating my life? [[;)]]


    You're giving me something to think about. I don't know how much more thinking my brains could handle. I want to start playing with my toys soon! [8o|]

  • Yes I know the feeling. Well, the question is, you want to write NOW not later. So buy a G5 now, why don't you buy a second hand 2.0 now, get going, learn the system get comfortable, (it is certainly capable) in a few months you'll easily be at the point of saying "I need something faster" at which point, you can buy a dual core system, sell the 2.0 (or keep it as a node if you want) pay the difference, probably not greater than your depreciation on your otherwise new present system, and be at the top of the game AND get to play with your toys sooner. If you do that, use an old screen for your 2.0, and buy a new one with a warratee for the new system you get later.

    Or is all this just me messing with your head [6]

    Miklos. [8-)]

  • Miklos,

    The countdown has begun, I must take action before the end of the week. I'll have to go with the dual 2.7 immediately since these are important projects, I fear overload problems. But I need some help with a few things:

    Let's recapitulate my needs and then can you tell me if my specifications are ok?

    1-I want to use in RAM: 80-100 tracks, plus effects.
    2-I will be using performance intruments and many articulations.
    3-This will be used for major productions, I must minimize set backs.
    4-I will be mixing, but not necessarily the final thing.
    5-I will always be working with a film track.
    6-I will be using the "Complete Orchestral Package" and possibly add a few other things such as Choirs, Exotic percussions.

    Is this going to do?


    Specifications

    Dual 2.7GHz PowerPC G5
    4GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 4x1GB
    250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
    ATI Radeon 9650 w/256MB DDR SDRAM
    Apple Cinema Display (20" flat panel)
    16x SuperDrive double-layer (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
    Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
    Mac OS X - U.S. English
    AppleCare Protection Plan for Power Mac (w/ or w/o Display)

    AND WHAT ABOUT:

    -Do I need this, or is this an option for the SATA RAID? Fibre Channel PCI-X Card (w/SFP-SFP cable) (I'm confused on this one!)

    -Could more GB make a big difference for my needs? 400GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm

    -Logic Express preinstalled OR Pro Logic7

    Thanks a lot.

    Guy

  • I'm humbled that you asked. When you say 80 to 100 tracks I presume you mean 80 to 100 tracks not 80 - 100 instruments IE you're talking about say 40 - 50 stereo instances of EXS with various tracks for different keyswitched articulations within those instruments? OR are you talking 80 - 100 stereo EXS instruments all playing at once. If it's the latter, hmmm, I think the processors could handle it, but I don't think that hard drive or memory will, especially not with what you're talking about. The way to get around the ram limitations of logic are:

    1. EXS Manager - a must have merge your library
    2. some kind of RAID system, I have 2X250 gb FW800 drives which works for me and my budget which is low. However you sound like you're getting decent work so I suggest a PCI SATA raid system this means a PCI card in your mac probably with dual bus connecting you to at least 4 X 250 Gb drives (I mean at least as in the 4X drives not as in the 250Gb drives, in fact you could have 160Gb drives that would be fine). Stripe them toether in a type 0 array that means they appear as one drive and spread the information equally over the four drives, so if you lose one, you lose all the data - that's fine since you're using a sample library keep all your original material on those drives if you have modified material that you can't restore from DVD's if a drive dies on you store that stuff on another drive - this set up is your speed set up for loading and streaming your large sample merged files from disk - then in EXS in your virtual memory settings you can set the disk speed to fast and your hard disk recording activity to less, that means less RAM usage, more "open" tracks (unfrozen active tracks). If you have this hard disk set up, I think you should have no problems - coupled with retaining your second (you're going to need it) 7200RPM SATA internal drive for audio tracks and primarily, freeze tracks (store your project files on that drive and the freeze tracks should automatically get put there by logic) you should be able to run what you're talking about. You *may* need to freeze a couple of legato perf instruments now and then, but you should be able to freeze up to 32 stereo tracks on the one drive without running into problems. You should be able to run a video track but you might need to recompress it into a low res file that isn't too processor hungry for example I wouldn't want to run any DV format files through logic (can you do that?) but you get the idea, simple files that are there for timing only, and then you can export your final stuff with the high quality file.

    You can certainly mix on this set up, but my point was if you are playing the parts in live which I presume you are, then you're going to want to use a setting of 128 on your buffer settings, which means you will get almost no latency when you play an instrument (so you can hear what you are playing!), however, this is very processor intensive to do - no probs for a 2.7 ghz but once you start running 80 - 100 tracks (should be no problem once again) but then turn on altiverb or something like that, you're going to get stuttering and you're probably going to need to drop your buffer settings down to 256 (still playable) or better, 512 or 1024 (at least 1 second delay from what you play to what you hear) which is great for mixing - you can start loading up your altiverbs etc (It's like finding you have all this horsepower left) but you can't continue to play in tracks.

    If I need to play in more parts when I'm at that stage, I just ALT+click bypass all the altiverbs, pretty quick to do, reload with the 128 buffer setting, play and parts and reverse that to get back to mixing.

    I definately recommend Logic Pro over Express for what you are talking about I don't even think Logic express will run that many tracks by default.

    4 gigs is good but 4.5 is better remember 3.7 is the sample limitation for Logic, the system still needs RAM itself and there you have a recommended minimum of 512mb to avoid swapping, and even then, don't run other apps at the same time. For the system you are getting, I think it wouldn't hurt you to get another 2X 256 simms.

    Lastly, Fibre channel apple raid WOW if you can afford that, go for it, but it's pretty pricey, the SATA RAID gives good performance and reliability and is affordable for what you get. I don't think you can buy SATA raid off the apple store - are you buying from the apple store - well I don't know about where you live but here that's about 10% more than what I'd normally have to pay in a shop so shop around and there will be someone to help you out with the SATA RAID set up - honestly take as much time as you can to look into that part of things too because I can't help you out having no experience in actually owning one, I've just researched it enough to know that at this price point it's the best thing to go for for what we want. As far as I know, avoid firewire set ups for RAID and avoid Lacie RAIDED drives, they are cheap alternatives and don't give the same performance, if you want the real deal SATA RAID or apple raid of course. If you want to start out without spending too much on this, you can buy a firewire 800 PCI card (don't use the bus in the mac for this has to be a seperate bus) and buy 2 firewire 800 drives software raid them together and see how your performance is but from what you say you're after I can almost guarantee it won't be fast enough.

    Finally GOOD LUCK with that system sounds awesome.

    All the Best,
    Miklos.

  • Miklos,

    Once more thanks for all that valuable information. [:)]

    First thing is, that indeed it's 80-100 instruments, 1 inst. or articulation per track.

    Second, There is too much for me to fully understand within this week.

    All the setting adjustments I could take my time doing once the equipement is in front of me.

    So if I want to get cooking soon I must place an order, and Canada is far...

    I'm obviously getting closer to the right specification. So here's an update:


    Specifications

    -Dual 2.7GHz PowerPC G5
    -4GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - (4x1GB) + (2 x 256) =4.5GB(Is that right? I'm feeling dopey in this one!)
    -250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
    -ATI Radeon 9650 w/256MB DDR SDRAM
    -Apple Cinema Display (20" flat panel)
    -16x SuperDrive double-layer (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
    -Fibre Channel PCI-X Card (w/SFP-SFP cable) As you recommended, right?
    -Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
    -Mac OS X - U.S. English
    -Pro Logic 7 (As you recommended)
    -AppleCare Protection Plan for Power Mac (w/ or w/o Display)


    Am I missing something?

    Thanks!

    Guy

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    @Guy said:

    Specifications

    -Dual 2.7GHz PowerPC G5
    -4GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - (4x1GB) + (2 x 256) =4.5GB(Is that right? I'm feeling dopey in this one!)
    -250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
    -ATI Radeon 9650 w/256MB DDR SDRAM
    -Apple Cinema Display (20" flat panel)
    -16x SuperDrive double-layer (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
    -Fibre Channel PCI-X Card (w/SFP-SFP cable) As you recommended, right?
    -Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
    -Mac OS X - U.S. English
    -Pro Logic 7 (As you recommended)
    -AppleCare Protection Plan for Power Mac (w/ or w/o Display)


    Am I missing something?

    Thanks!

    Guy


    Get 4.5 gigs.

    2 x 250 gig hard drives - minimum.

    What about your reverb? Altiverb 5. Space Designer is Ok but forget it in the final mix.

    What about your soundcard? How you going to hear anything?

    What about your monitors? Active ones would be a good idea.

    What about headphones?

    What about a Logic Control desk and expanders - when you're talking the number of instruments that you mention - that's going to be a must!

    What about a second screen - for this or that. i.e. Avid or another favourite page of Logic?

    Come on Guy - get with the programme!

    [:P] [:D]

  • Paul, look I already have several of the things you mentioned, I've been doing this for 2 years, AND SUCCESSFULLY, so don't make me look like a monkey! I just don't have the computer and software anymore. And I'm trying to learn all this stuff now. And a 2nd screen is handy, but I got by very well with just one. I have speakers. The PC card I do need. But can you not be a jackass about it? [:D]

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    @Guy said:

    Paul, look I already have several of the things you mentioned,


    Would it not be a good idea to state what you have already then Guy?

  • Paul,

    I am looking for everything that pertains hardware and software only, I don't think that speakers, headphones, comfortable working chair etc... athough all important, is included in that.

    [H] But Guy how about a nice new BBQ?

    [[:|]] No thanks, just hardware and software toys.