@strawinsky said:

One thing,for certain:I'm very pleased to learn that your platform of choice is behaving. It's no joke being at the mercy of the machine.

If you're pleased, then I'm pleased [:)] All I was interested in was making sure that people who read these threads see some sort of balance regarding PC and Mac. I use whatever tool is better for my purpose; in the end I don't care what it is called, who makes it or what colour it is.

As far as Protools is concerned (see I do know the real name), I suppose that I do have a bee in my bonnet, having been advised to use it in the past, and lived to regret it. A case of people assuming that well known brandnames are always superior.

DG

Absolutely.I'm not bothered in the slightest by the impending Intel Macs.In fact I believe they will be even better.

AHEM.... a friend has posted me this link at my request yes you guessed it (or did you?) it is the number 2 at microsoft, DISREGARDING the principle of dignity.

Check out how he says "Give it up for me"
and also notice the sweat under the arms kind of add's to things.

Now, I'm not badmouthing MS here (opinions aside), so please don't censor me moderators, this is simply a link to a clip that shows him at his keynote, unedited, HE is the star here, not anybody else and I ain't saying another word, because there are NO WORDS for this! oh and I can't help the filename not my doing.

http://users.pandora.be/bonte/forumafbeeldingen/dancemonkeyboy.mpg

I am so happy he found the link, but then, it's so bad, I forgot how bad, and actually I feel terrible.

[[:|]] [:O]ops: [:'(]

That was enough to convert me forever, and I DO care who makes the tools I use, I don't want Robert Mugabe shoes, or Osama eye glasses. If you think my comparisons are extreme then look at the video behaviour, that's a whole other kind of extreme!

@mpower88 said:

AHEM.... a friend has posted me this link at my request yes you guessed it (or did you?) it is the number 2 at microsoft, DISREGARDING the principle of dignity.

Check out how he says "Give it up for me"
and also notice the sweat under the arms kind of add's to things.

Now, I'm not badmouthing MS here (opinions aside), so please don't censor me moderators, this is simply a link to a clip that shows him at his keynote, unedited, HE is the star here, not anybody else and I ain't saying another word, because there are NO WORDS for this! oh and I can't help the filename not my doing.

http://users.pandora.be/bonte/forumafbeeldingen/dancemonkeyboy.mpg

I am so happy he found the link, but then, it's so bad, I forgot how bad, and actually I feel terrible.

[[:|]] [:O]ops: [:'(]

Priceless [:D]

DG

Now that is truly cringeworthy stuff. Makes Ricky Gervais and a classic episode of 'The Office' look mild in comparison.

Can't see Herb and the team doing this somehow.........!

Regards,


Alex.

[[:|]]

William,

I'm sorry if we got on the wrong foot, but a passion for something like a girl or in our case music/VSL could have its rough areas. Hope we could forget the past and help each other out. [:)]

[[;)]] Cheers!

Guy

All my girls had rough areas: that's why I always carry a sheet of sandpaper with me.
Oh,and that Steve Ballmer should be sacked by Microsoft for complacency.

@strawinsky said:

All my girls had rough areas: that's why I always carry a sheet of sandpaper with me.

[:)] [:D] [:D]

Interesting! I just read the legnthy thread of the Debussy "Jeux de vagues" where arguments broke out with Nafai23, William and a bunch others. I see the subject was somewhere along the lines of this thread's argument. Everybody loved the Debussy but Nafai thought it was cold and sterile, of course I don't agree with Nafia's harsh way of looking at programing music, it's not there to be compared to a real orchestra. The only part I agree with Nafia is that IF you "INSIST" on comparing it with a real orchestra, yes it does sound a bit cold, sorry folks, and don't shoot me, but for the rest I don't go along with him. We can't blame professional musians and concert musicians for making these kind of comments, after all the goal of VSL or any other librairy IS to deceive people making you believe it's NOT a machine doing all that. I just wish I could of heard the Debussy, it's not on the link anymore nor on the demo section. Too bad.

Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents.

Guy

http://www.vsl.co.at/en-us/67/3920/4042.vsl

best
Herb

Well I can't argue with all that's been said, that is the good stuff.

...and thank's Herb.

Guy,
I don't agree with this.
We've had some great discussions here about the value of the 'live' sound, and the intent by many to emulate a live orchestra. But to say this is a role of a sample library, an intent to deceive, then i'm not in agreement with you. The VSL, along with other sample libraries are more akin to a large instrument the composer plays. Yes, the samples are recorded by live musicians, but i think that's where the comparison should end. Although products are often marketed as orchestral replacements (and i exclude VSL from this), the fact is you can make your sample library instrument do anything you want it to, within your ability. If for example, you want an orchestral sound with 25 French Horns, or 16 Clarinets, there's nothing stopping you, only your perception of what a sample library 'should' sound like with a regular orchestra as a benchmark. Why?
Having a Sample library instrument (SLI) is akin to playing a piano or organ, as was discussed elsewhere in the forum to some length. The SLI is a natural extension or progression of that technology.
If however you want a regular orchestral sound, and you are determined to create as close to 'Orchestral live' as possible then you can strive for that too.
Either method or mentality is valid.

Regards,

Alex.

Alex,

I'm not saying you're wrong but being what it is, what do you expect the people's response to be? If it's going to sound very close to an orchestra, even if you write a cluster of 16 horns, 99% of the time the comparason will be inevitable because the ear is use to hearing real orcheatras. You could rationalize it however you want, but the general crowd will not hear it as you do. You are not just showing this stuff to people here on the forum, but the general public, and they have the right to say it sounds like this or like that with no further explanations.

Best,

Guy

Guy,
The aural assumption is true, and perceptions are what they are.
But, as Beethoven, Wagner, Shostakovich, Schoenberg, and a pile of others showed, stepping outside the norm is interesting in itself, and often introduces new perceptions for the general public to enjoy or not as the case may be.

I confess to a musically rebellious streak..............

Regards,

Alex.

But why would one interfere with the other? I enjoy working both ways.

I with you on this one hermitage, I think if you use the VSL library and in fact all production tools like an instrument, then you are a digital musician, and it is something that is musically and creatively measurable in it's own right. I agree, that VSL can be used to compose for orchestra, to emulate, but also, to be so much more, and to break those "restrictions" as you may choose to see them, and find new and perhaps even more rich sounds and ideas that are not normally thought of. And of course, as you say, both view points are entirely and equally valid, though I subscribe to the digital musician viewpoint myself, since I haven't been associated with a traditional orchestra, and it's also a more relevant stance for me creatively.

Miklos.

Guy,

You're wrong. 100% of the time there will be comparisons. That's the way it works.

So you act according to your aesthetic and who cares? Your intended audience (if you're lucky). Do it well enough and people will be interested enough to alter their paradigm to be more in line with yours.

ALL listeners will make comparisons.

MOST listeners, on the other hand, have no idea if they're listening to an english horn, an oboe, or a bassoon but they'll STILL make comparisons. They're going to make associations that are inconceivable at times (mistaking a clarinet for an oboe, or Kenny G for a jazz musician, for instance). The directors I work with who are musically more literate are so much more fun to work for. These people understand that with live musicians the score will sound better, though very similar (as an example).

For those who don't understand, however, reality is not a concern. The demo MUST be the final mix, though. Those clients need to hear it all nice and pretty, and who cares if the voice leading isn't perfect or if a real orchestra would have 16 clarinets. Even then they can say that the music sounds too ORANGE and then what do you do? Is that when you think about how real something sounds?

Orchestras are real. Samples are real. Synths are real. Real is real.

VSL is a tool that can sound real or not. Sometimes the gig needs to sound real, sometimes it's not a priority. Rationalizations aside, EVERYONE will hear the music differently than you do. Even your co-composers (if you're part of a team).

And that's the beauty.

Lastly, William made a great point when he said that we're comparing VSL to the greatest orchestras in the world with the greatest conductors in the world with the biggest budgets in the world that are recorded with the finest microphones in the world controlled by the greatest recording engineers in the world in the finest concert halls in the world backed by the best record labels in the universe...

The Debussy mockup is scary. Period. Any of us would be a lottery winner if we could get a performance like that out of an orchestra.

I've have sessions of real orchestras that SUCK in comparison to my mockups. And this was pre-VSL! We're talking tons of wrong notes, ugly out of tune timbres, and parts that just were not there!

Guy, I don't believe that people are out to get you here but your line of reasoning indicates that you are unaware of a great deal of soundware history and development of this sample stuff, though your description of your career indicates otherwise. This makes intelligent discussion frustrating from the point of view of other more experienced VSL users.

It would seem as if you claimed you were a native of Houston, Texas, but drove all your friends crazy by complaining that it was hot and humid and why can't the government hurry up and develop technology so we can have our own climate controlled body suits but its O.K. because this is just your opinion even though climate issues have been talked to death already but you'd rather not bother looking for these threads and why is everybody upset they're acting like you weren't paying attention when all this went down the first time...

Clark

Clark,

I say what I believe in, not what others believe in. I stand by what I say and have no regrets in anything I said. I base what I say on my own experience, observation, and sensitivity. I'm also not insecure or touchy like some people here in admiting that some things we may be attached to aren't perfect. My results in music and work with VSL speaks for themselves, I have nothing to prove to you. I have a ball doing music, composing, performing, and orchestrating with VSL. If my opinions were so out of line to put it mildly I'd be a frustrated musician, maybe like you! So as long as I'm having fun doing what I'm doing, communicating music with people, and getting film contracts, I don't think my sense of music is too bad.

Anybody on any forums who takes other peoples comments too personal shoud think twice about taking part. There's nothing dramatic I said, but just my own opinion. But if you or anybody else feels that I'm here just waisting valuable space, please cast your vote for my departure, but if I stay I will speak my mind whether Clark or anybody else likes it or not.


Guy [[;)]]

@Another User said:

you'd rather not bother looking for these threads and why is everybody upset they're acting like you weren't paying attention when all this went down the first time...

Clark

Another cheap shot! Anymore?

And I suppose once you gave your opinion on this 6 month ago, nobody else could have a fresh say in this, maybe coming from a different angle. And what about other new registered member, might be fun for them also to take part? Oh, but I forgot you killed that topic, 6 month ago. Do you also have the rights to it?
I'd say your comment showsan egotistical side...

Guy - What the hell are you talking about? Clarkcontrol writes a perfectly reasonable post stating a disagreement, not making any kind of flame, and you act incredibly defensive. Guess what? This is a Forum and it is supposed to have argument. If you can't take that then go home and whine into your pillow while you cry uncontrollably. Otherwise, post an intelligent rebuttal and demonstrate the purpose of a Forum. This is the internet, damn it! We are supposed to be crazy here.

I know I am.

Clarkcontrol - that is absolutely true. And based on experience.

Alex - you are correct as usual, but I would go militantly a step farther -

SAMPLES ARE SUPERIOR TO LIVE INSTRUMENTS.

Or at least will be, and have the potential for fulfilling a composer's most demanding, detailed and perfected musical thought.

The entire history of music is one of performers and conductors dominating the composer, who even has to admit the indignity of starting out as a servant enslaved by aristocratic amateur performers. Beethoven started to change all that, but until the present time, composers were still enslaved to the wretched indignity inflicted upon the typical classical composer who is assumed to go with his hat in his hand, begging for a performance from arrogant idiot conductors and music directors. For the first time in history, this is no longer necessary. A composer can fulfill to exacting specification every element of musical thought. There are still some compromises, but these will be erased in time. Samples represent the ultimate purification of musical tone to the highest artistic level. Anyone who thinks they are a mere cheap subsitute for a live orchestra is an unimaginative idiot.

Soon, if live orchestras can perform half as well as the definitive sampled performance by the composer - they will count themselves lucky.