Interesting! I just read the legnthy thread of the Debussy "Jeux de vagues" where arguments broke out with Nafai23, William and a bunch others. I see the subject was somewhere along the lines of this thread's argument. Everybody loved the Debussy but Nafai thought it was cold and sterile, of course I don't agree with Nafia's harsh way of looking at programing music, it's not there to be compared to a real orchestra. The only part I agree with Nafia is that IF you "INSIST" on comparing it with a real orchestra, yes it does sound a bit cold, sorry folks, and don't shoot me, but for the rest I don't go along with him. We can't blame professional musians and concert musicians for making these kind of comments, after all the goal of VSL or any other librairy IS to deceive people making you believe it's NOT a machine doing all that. I just wish I could of heard the Debussy, it's not on the link anymore nor on the demo section. Too bad.

Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents.

Guy

http://www.vsl.co.at/en-us/67/3920/4042.vsl

best
Herb

Well I can't argue with all that's been said, that is the good stuff.

...and thank's Herb.

Guy,
I don't agree with this.
We've had some great discussions here about the value of the 'live' sound, and the intent by many to emulate a live orchestra. But to say this is a role of a sample library, an intent to deceive, then i'm not in agreement with you. The VSL, along with other sample libraries are more akin to a large instrument the composer plays. Yes, the samples are recorded by live musicians, but i think that's where the comparison should end. Although products are often marketed as orchestral replacements (and i exclude VSL from this), the fact is you can make your sample library instrument do anything you want it to, within your ability. If for example, you want an orchestral sound with 25 French Horns, or 16 Clarinets, there's nothing stopping you, only your perception of what a sample library 'should' sound like with a regular orchestra as a benchmark. Why?
Having a Sample library instrument (SLI) is akin to playing a piano or organ, as was discussed elsewhere in the forum to some length. The SLI is a natural extension or progression of that technology.
If however you want a regular orchestral sound, and you are determined to create as close to 'Orchestral live' as possible then you can strive for that too.
Either method or mentality is valid.

Regards,

Alex.

Alex,

I'm not saying you're wrong but being what it is, what do you expect the people's response to be? If it's going to sound very close to an orchestra, even if you write a cluster of 16 horns, 99% of the time the comparason will be inevitable because the ear is use to hearing real orcheatras. You could rationalize it however you want, but the general crowd will not hear it as you do. You are not just showing this stuff to people here on the forum, but the general public, and they have the right to say it sounds like this or like that with no further explanations.

Best,

Guy

Guy,
The aural assumption is true, and perceptions are what they are.
But, as Beethoven, Wagner, Shostakovich, Schoenberg, and a pile of others showed, stepping outside the norm is interesting in itself, and often introduces new perceptions for the general public to enjoy or not as the case may be.

I confess to a musically rebellious streak..............

Regards,

Alex.

But why would one interfere with the other? I enjoy working both ways.

I with you on this one hermitage, I think if you use the VSL library and in fact all production tools like an instrument, then you are a digital musician, and it is something that is musically and creatively measurable in it's own right. I agree, that VSL can be used to compose for orchestra, to emulate, but also, to be so much more, and to break those "restrictions" as you may choose to see them, and find new and perhaps even more rich sounds and ideas that are not normally thought of. And of course, as you say, both view points are entirely and equally valid, though I subscribe to the digital musician viewpoint myself, since I haven't been associated with a traditional orchestra, and it's also a more relevant stance for me creatively.

Miklos.

Guy,

You're wrong. 100% of the time there will be comparisons. That's the way it works.

So you act according to your aesthetic and who cares? Your intended audience (if you're lucky). Do it well enough and people will be interested enough to alter their paradigm to be more in line with yours.

ALL listeners will make comparisons.

MOST listeners, on the other hand, have no idea if they're listening to an english horn, an oboe, or a bassoon but they'll STILL make comparisons. They're going to make associations that are inconceivable at times (mistaking a clarinet for an oboe, or Kenny G for a jazz musician, for instance). The directors I work with who are musically more literate are so much more fun to work for. These people understand that with live musicians the score will sound better, though very similar (as an example).

For those who don't understand, however, reality is not a concern. The demo MUST be the final mix, though. Those clients need to hear it all nice and pretty, and who cares if the voice leading isn't perfect or if a real orchestra would have 16 clarinets. Even then they can say that the music sounds too ORANGE and then what do you do? Is that when you think about how real something sounds?

Orchestras are real. Samples are real. Synths are real. Real is real.

VSL is a tool that can sound real or not. Sometimes the gig needs to sound real, sometimes it's not a priority. Rationalizations aside, EVERYONE will hear the music differently than you do. Even your co-composers (if you're part of a team).

And that's the beauty.

Lastly, William made a great point when he said that we're comparing VSL to the greatest orchestras in the world with the greatest conductors in the world with the biggest budgets in the world that are recorded with the finest microphones in the world controlled by the greatest recording engineers in the world in the finest concert halls in the world backed by the best record labels in the universe...

The Debussy mockup is scary. Period. Any of us would be a lottery winner if we could get a performance like that out of an orchestra.

I've have sessions of real orchestras that SUCK in comparison to my mockups. And this was pre-VSL! We're talking tons of wrong notes, ugly out of tune timbres, and parts that just were not there!

Guy, I don't believe that people are out to get you here but your line of reasoning indicates that you are unaware of a great deal of soundware history and development of this sample stuff, though your description of your career indicates otherwise. This makes intelligent discussion frustrating from the point of view of other more experienced VSL users.

It would seem as if you claimed you were a native of Houston, Texas, but drove all your friends crazy by complaining that it was hot and humid and why can't the government hurry up and develop technology so we can have our own climate controlled body suits but its O.K. because this is just your opinion even though climate issues have been talked to death already but you'd rather not bother looking for these threads and why is everybody upset they're acting like you weren't paying attention when all this went down the first time...

Clark

Clark,

I say what I believe in, not what others believe in. I stand by what I say and have no regrets in anything I said. I base what I say on my own experience, observation, and sensitivity. I'm also not insecure or touchy like some people here in admiting that some things we may be attached to aren't perfect. My results in music and work with VSL speaks for themselves, I have nothing to prove to you. I have a ball doing music, composing, performing, and orchestrating with VSL. If my opinions were so out of line to put it mildly I'd be a frustrated musician, maybe like you! So as long as I'm having fun doing what I'm doing, communicating music with people, and getting film contracts, I don't think my sense of music is too bad.

Anybody on any forums who takes other peoples comments too personal shoud think twice about taking part. There's nothing dramatic I said, but just my own opinion. But if you or anybody else feels that I'm here just waisting valuable space, please cast your vote for my departure, but if I stay I will speak my mind whether Clark or anybody else likes it or not.


Guy [[;)]]

@Another User said:

you'd rather not bother looking for these threads and why is everybody upset they're acting like you weren't paying attention when all this went down the first time...

Clark

Another cheap shot! Anymore?

And I suppose once you gave your opinion on this 6 month ago, nobody else could have a fresh say in this, maybe coming from a different angle. And what about other new registered member, might be fun for them also to take part? Oh, but I forgot you killed that topic, 6 month ago. Do you also have the rights to it?
I'd say your comment showsan egotistical side...

Guy - What the hell are you talking about? Clarkcontrol writes a perfectly reasonable post stating a disagreement, not making any kind of flame, and you act incredibly defensive. Guess what? This is a Forum and it is supposed to have argument. If you can't take that then go home and whine into your pillow while you cry uncontrollably. Otherwise, post an intelligent rebuttal and demonstrate the purpose of a Forum. This is the internet, damn it! We are supposed to be crazy here.

I know I am.

Clarkcontrol - that is absolutely true. And based on experience.

Alex - you are correct as usual, but I would go militantly a step farther -

SAMPLES ARE SUPERIOR TO LIVE INSTRUMENTS.

Or at least will be, and have the potential for fulfilling a composer's most demanding, detailed and perfected musical thought.

The entire history of music is one of performers and conductors dominating the composer, who even has to admit the indignity of starting out as a servant enslaved by aristocratic amateur performers. Beethoven started to change all that, but until the present time, composers were still enslaved to the wretched indignity inflicted upon the typical classical composer who is assumed to go with his hat in his hand, begging for a performance from arrogant idiot conductors and music directors. For the first time in history, this is no longer necessary. A composer can fulfill to exacting specification every element of musical thought. There are still some compromises, but these will be erased in time. Samples represent the ultimate purification of musical tone to the highest artistic level. Anyone who thinks they are a mere cheap subsitute for a live orchestra is an unimaginative idiot.

Soon, if live orchestras can perform half as well as the definitive sampled performance by the composer - they will count themselves lucky.

@Another User said:

The entire history of music is one of performers and conductors dominating the composer, who even has to admit the indignity of starting out as a servant enslaved by aristocratic amateur performers. Beethoven started to change all that, but until the present time, composers were still enslaved to the wretched indignity inflicted upon the typical classical composer who is assumed to go with his hat in his hand, begging for a performance from arrogant idiot conductors and music directors. For the first time in history, this is no longer necessary. A composer can fulfill to exacting specification every element of musical thought. There are still some compromises, but these will be erased in time. Samples represent the ultimate purification of musical tone to the highest artistic level. Anyone who thinks they are a mere cheap subsitute for a live orchestra is an unimaginative idiot.

Soon, if live orchestras can perform half as well as the definitive sampled performance by the composer - they will count themselves lucky.

Who do we have here? Professor William! Wow! All that is SO revealing!

chill out you guys. I think guy's points are valid and you're all jumping down each other's throats at the drop of a hat, that's not healthy argument it's kind of silly. [:O]ops:

You all make valid points.

What's this about Guy crying all the time? [*-)]


Miklos. [8-)]

Just to sum it up, Clark and William are as much insecure with my comments as I might at times get defensive. Nobody here on this forum can deny that it is a sensitive issue for them. Personally I don't give a shit! But I don't like to be told in so many words that I don't know what I'm talking about when I'm just voicing an opinion! Both of you guys first response to me was so out of proportion!

Now I must go back and do more crying on my pillow... [:'(]

Guy,

You had written that "99% of the time the comparison will be inevitable because the ear is used to hearing real orchestras."

I'm saying that there will ALWAYS be comparisons and most of the time people will make associations that are way beyond the things we worry about. You've never had a client ask for more "smiley" or "graciousness" or "orange" from the track? I've had directors wanting more oboe when they really meant clarinet. That kind of thing.

So what I'm saying is that YOU GOTTA DO YOUR THING and who cares if it sounds exactly real or not? That's what I meant when I said "So you act according to your aesthetic." That means SO WHAT if you have to layer your synth strings under the VSL strings to get more warmth. If it works it works.

You will find out very soon that these forums will become your greatest resource for research concerning sequencing tips, discussions about arranging and finessing these sometimes difficult tools (anyone care to chime in about their perf_rep adventures?) and you may even find something about getting the most out of your strings.

As you know you can also get excellent technical advice on hardware. It's easier to re-start a discussion on gear because after a few months the gear changes anyway. However, you would be missing out on a lot more than just string sound advice by not doing some homework on this forum. So jumping into the middle of this discussion and basically hijacking this thread from "VSL is too real" to "the strings are suffering" is probably not the best way to get information on how to deal with your problem.

Clark

I would like to site vangelis in this argument, who sounds very orchestral at times and yet totally not and sometimes his synths sound like orchestras and other times his orchestral insturments like synths either way he uses it as a creative producer, a digital musician if you will and I don't think there are comparisons with a real orchestra there even though the sound often gives the allusion to a full orchestra but is clearly not people go "Vangelis" and people are not "comparing" him to a real orchestra, quite the opposite, they are hearing his music.

William,

I would have to disagree somewhat with the "samples are superior" statement because I believe that performers can bring something extra to the music given the proper circumstances. In an orchestral setting where you act as virtual conductor, I believe that your sentiment is more applicable.

So maybe my corollary would be "where there is a larger ensemble represented (or some such thing) samples are superior..."

The reason for my point of view being this: smaller ensembles can suffer from a sequenced treatment. The interplay of a jazz trio rhythm section is notoriously difficult to finesse with real players. I can't imagine doing that with samples, no matter how good they are.

Also, imagine certain 20th century performance practices that rely heavily on the element of chaos and/or improvisation by the performers. Even if there was a way to program some of these random elements in I believe it would lose a bit of its soulfulness or human aesthetic that would govern each of the (virtual) performers' instincts.

Clark

@Guy said:

Just to sum it up, Clark and William are as much insecure with my comments as I might at times get defensive. Nobody here on this forum can deny that it is a sensitive issue for them. Personally I don't give a shit! But I don't like to be told in so many words that I don't know what I'm talking about when I'm just voicing an opinion! Both of you guys first response to me was so out of proportion!

Now I must go back and do more crying on my pillow... [:'(]

That's crazy Guy - seriously. Even I started thinking at one point - heck, this fellow doesn't trust anything anyone advises.

This has been proven by your tendency to ask the same question over and over again. I can understand that, naturally, being not the world's foremost expert on computers and how to use samples properly. Definitely now very interested in hearing some of your work examples.

Ok let's get one thing clear: you guys one track mind on this made you go completely of course with my original and intended point.

I specifically said: "WHY MUST ONE INTERFERE WITH THE OTHER?"

What the hell did I mean by that? Are some of you paying attention, Clark, William and Paul to what I'm saying, or are you too busy rebuttling?

I also said: "I ENJOY WORKING BOTH WAYS!"

What the f. am I saying here?

Hello? Is anybody home???

I've been defending myself in the last 10 posts against stupidity, not even relating to my point anymore.

But I'll explain it again since Paul, Clark and William seem to want to jump quickly to conclusion and before you know it we are completely of course...

I happen to work both ways. Meaning that sometime I like to work using sounds, effects, interesting combinations, new ways of approaching insruments and orchestration etc... that the ear is not accustom to , and I love it, it's refreshing, and in this case it becomes a different tool than the traditional orchestra and is not meant to have a "traditional orchestral sound".

On the other hand:

VSL is just as appropriate to do more traditional orchestration: Tchaikovsky type or John William, and it still sounds great, at least my own results. Although in this case the comparason with real orchestras will be inevitable! Where the f. is the problem?

Having said that, I'd like to say that I have been discusted with a few comments making me wonder if I'm waisting my time here.

(Quote)Paul: "Guy you should think before letting your fingers type..."

(Quote)Clark: "Guy it is difficult to have an intelligent conversation with you..."

Maybe you guys should take a little more time to see what the other person is trying to say. And if I didn't spare some feelings I'd go ahead and say some of the really stupid things Paul have said on some of the posts, and that Clark is not quite as intelligent is he thinks he is.

But crazy or no crazy on these forums, I think people should be careful in what they say, stupid comments such as Paul's and Clark's just lead to more stupidity, and it just builds up to even more stupidity.