And anyway, you don't understand the point of the arguement at all.

The point is, he felt that by buying into VSL years ago and supporting them through all this time that he eventually would end up better off.

Adding up the cost of what he's paid in and what someone can come in off the street and pay, he ends up worse. That's his gripe and I understand it completely. It was said long ago that users buying in early would never pay more than new users. It appears that isn't true at all. Since new users can effectively buy the whole shooting match right now and save more than he can. I don't care about the extended library discount since when you add it all up, he still paid more in the end. That's the bottom line and that's the arguement.

I'm done with it.

@Joseph Burrell said:

And anyway, you don't understand the point of the arguement at all.

The point is, he felt that by buying into VSL years ago and supporting them through all this time that he eventually would end up better off.

Adding up the cost of what he's paid in and what someone can come in off the street and pay, he ends up worse. That's his gripe and I understand it completely. It was said long ago that users buying in early would never pay more than new users. It appears that isn't true at all. Since new users can effectively buy the whole shooting match right now and save more than he can. I don't care about the extended library discount since when you add it all up, he still paid more in the end. That's the bottom line and that's the arguement.

I'm done with it.

No, I'm afraid that you don't understand. Your friend still has the Pro Edition; you don't, even if you both buy the extended version. It's like still having the old car when you do the trade in for a new one. Having used the samples for years must have some financial implication. For example, I've been using Sibelius since 1993, so I'm bound to have paid more to the company than someone who has just bought Sibelius 4. So in effect I have paid well over £2000 for a product that is worth (to the new customer) £500.

However I will admit that if I was doing the pricing for VSL, I would have given existing customers a discount on the Standard content and less of a discount on the Extended content, but in the end it you buy it all it will probably make no difference.

DG

i own the pro edition and the epic horns.

i want the new VI. How much will it cost me for the upgrade?

that's all.

DG,

No, you have it wrong. This car metaphor is totally wrong when you think about it. The new car/software thing you refer to is flawed because:

This new package is supposed to replace the old one. Sure we can hold on to the old media. However, we don't pay for the media. We pay for the License to Use These Samples. Therefore, we shouldn't be charged twice for this license. PERIOD.

Sure the samples are at a new resolution. So what? We've already paid the licensing fees. So there is a new interface. So what? We've already paid for the license to use these sounds.

When I upgrade Logic I pay less than new buyers. When anyone upgrades anything they pay less than new buyers. PERIOD.

Clark

I am very much on clark's side. The samples by nature are a LICENSED product. If you pay to license a Britney Spears recording, you can use that segment of the song you license, or if it's the whole song, at any sample rate, sample format, bit rate or what not you choose. If we use her song in a movie we can play it back at 32 kbps audio for all they care, so long as it was properly licensed.

The issue that I agree with clark about is that we ALREADY licensed these samples. The fact that we have to pay the EXACT same price as others just opening the gate of VSL is, in all honesty, ridiculous. To expect that individuals who have already licensed the new material have to RE-LICENSE the EXACT SAME material is completely against the whole concept of licensing something. To expect past users to pay to acquire the 24 bit version of the samples along with some kind of other cost to integrate their old system with the new VI is in many ways a lot more reasonable to individuals who have been using the product for some time now.

With that said, it is a mere opinion on the situation. There are definitely greater forces that surround the project than your average junior member on the VSL forums, but I still do honestly hold Herb and every one of his team members in the highest respect, and simply reserve my right to hold my own opinion as far as what direction the project is now going.

-Tim

@DG said:

No, I'm afraid that you don't understand. Your friend still has the Pro Edition; you don't, even if you both buy the extended version. It's like still having the old car when you do the trade in for a new one. Having used the samples for years must have some financial implication. For example, I've been using Sibelius since 1993, so I'm bound to have paid more to the company than someone who has just bought Sibelius 4. So in effect I have paid well over £2000 for a product that is worth (to the new customer) £500.
DG

While I can see both sides of the argument well enough, the Sibelius example may not be the best illustration. If you paid, say £500 for Sibelius when you first bought it and £100 a year for an upgrade, that would be a lot different than paying over £500 for one single upgrade when you could save money by just buying a whole new license.

Likewise with the used car example, it doesn't make sense to trade in a car and see no net deduction for your trade if you are still paying the same or more for a new car as another person who did not have a vehicle to trade. Why bother trading when starting from scratch is cheaper?

Even if one sets aside thoughts of accumulated investments, loyal members really ought not pay *the same* as new customers for the single standard upgrade. Even Apple didn't force Logic users to pay $1000+ to upgrade to Pro 7. It was more than what Emagic used to charge, but it wasn't anywhere close to being the same as buying a new bundle outright.

It's clear, to me anyway, that SC is indeed largely a whole different ball of wax, but much about these price points and discounts is getting lost in translation. We really should wait until the Discount Calculator is up and running before drawing too many definite conclusions. There were similar issues with PE users when some of the Horizon series first appeared-- and that was resolved quite nicely, imho.

One thing of interest would be whether my PE would work with VI. I may in fact have all the samples I need for now, for PE is still serving me well. Having 24-bit is VERY nice but it may not be financially feasible for everyone without a project or enough projects to justify getting the whole SC right away. The early bird discounts are doing little to encourage me to make the leap immediately. I have no use, for example, for a pipe organ *right now*, but I'll need a great one "whenever the time comes"-- meaning: I can do with out the organ today.

But if PE were compatible with VI, I'd feel a lot better. I'd get VI first in a heartbeat right away if it were available as an Extension to PE as well as SC. Maybe this info is in the videos or the fine print on the VSL home page, but I've not had a chance to get through everything just yet. I'm dreaming, probably, and will have to live with Perf Tools at least until this whole SC-VIP matter gets sorted out.

Edit-- Well, I just sorted out that VI is an entirely different structure that will not read ESX24 format.

Now-- the word "convert" is suddenly very attractive...!! [[:|]]

@cm said:

this _is_ the truth, joseph
another example: if you have already the pro edition complete orchestral package and all related horizons (solo, chamber, harps, french oboe, woodwind ens, epic horns) you will only have to pay 320 EUR for the extended content additionally to the 3.900 EUR for the standard content. this results in an *overall upgrade price* of 4220 EUR to the complete symphonic cube
christian

That means for me, as a user of Chamber Strings. No upgrade patch to the standard edition? But a discount to the extended edition?
Hmm, I am just a hobby musician. No way to get just an upgrade to the standard edtition for a reasonalble fee? [[:|]]

tele

I'm afraid that I've thought about what I've said very hard. I agree that the car comparison is flawed; I was trying to put things in perspective about buying a new product, rather than an upgrade per se. However I've also calculated what I have spent (roughly) so far.
In the 2 years that I have used VSL (by the time than SC is released as far as announced plans go) I will have spent about £6000 give or take. A "new" user (who won't have the GS3 option and 16 bit samples) can have the same system as I do for about £200 less than this. So yes, they are paying less than my total amount spent, but I have had the use of ALL the VSL 16bit content for 2 years for a paltry £200. What a bargain [:)] I don't see that I've lost out at all and am certainly not envious of all those who now have the same as I do.
As I stated previously it might have been prudent to give a small discount on the Standard content, but nobody has to buy VI if they don't want to.

DG

@DG said:

However I will admit that if I was doing the pricing for VSL, I would have given existing customers a discount on the Standard content and less of a discount on the Extended content, but in the end it you buy it all it will probably make no difference.
DG

That is the missing part. NO possibility to upgrade to the standard edition. Many, many users are not top notch movie score writers and don't want or need the extended edition. Like me.

No upgrade path from VSL Chamber Strings to the Chamber Strings Stanard edition will result in me not purchasing anything at all.
There needs to be an upgrade patch to the standard edition. Hopefully VSL will reflect the topic.

Imagine Steinberg were to release Cubase SX and SL 4.0 today, but no upgrade patch from SL 3.0 to SL 4.0 for $150. Only upgrades from SL 3.0 to SX 4.0 for SL users or buy a complete new SL 4.0? That would be kind of strange.
Well it is not exactly the same thing, because one could say the original Chamber Strings were the SX version and I'm asking for an upgrade price from SX3 to SL4.

Bottom line is: If you want to take advantage of the new engine, you gotta pay the full price. From there you can upgrade to more samples for little money. Greast for those who want the extended version, bad for those who anly need the Standrard Edition.

tele

@DG said:

As I stated previously it might have been prudent to give a small discount on the Standard content, but nobody has to buy VI if they don't want to.

One could stop eating and save even more...

[:D]

@Another User said:

That means for me, as a user of Chamber Strings. No upgrade patch to the standard edition? But a discount to the extended edition?
Hmm, I am just a hobby musician. No way to get just an upgrade to the standard edtition for a reasonalble fee?

Discount is dedicated to the Extended version.
I've tried to explain the deskcion for splitting into Standard and Extended content here.
http://community.vsl.co.at/viewtopic.php?t=6774&start=0

However, evem if it would be possible to resell the products with different prices at our dealers (which is unfortenately not possible), a theoretically discount would be very low.

The calculation of the Standard price includes the margins, for distributors and resellers, the productions costs (DVD mastering, replication, packaging, manula printing), the developement of the software, the new sample content, the 24 Bit samples, and so on.
So a possible discount for the Standard library of the Chambers could be 10%.
Maybe possible for Chamber Strings collection, because here you only have one upgrade product. But absolutely not possible for the woodwinds for example, where the VIP price depends if you have Opus 1, Opus2, Opus 1/2 bundle, First Ed Woodwinds, First Ed Perf Set, First Ed COP, Pro Ed Woodwinds, Pro Ed Perf Set, Pro Ed COP, Hor .French Oboe, Hor. Woodwind ensemble, and all possible combinations.
So far up to 30 variants which would have a variable discount from 5 to 15%.

Also I'd like to add, that no owner of the Chamber Strings would work with the Standard collection. The standard collections do have new stuff, for example the fast legato performances, and of course some existing stuff.
But you would miss a lot of samples you already have on your Chamber Strings Horizon product. So you would be forced to use the Horizon Chamber Strings paralell with the Vienna Instrument Chamber Strings.

I don't have the exact figures here, but the Standard content includes 25% to 30% of all samples, and the extended content 70 to 75%.

best
Herb
[/quote]

@herb said:

Also I'd like to add, that no owner of the Chamber Strings would work with the Standard collection. The standard collections do have new stuff, for example the fast legato performances, and of course some existing stuff. But you would miss a lot of samples you already have on your Chamber Strings Horizon product. So you would be forced to use the Horizon Chamber Strings paralell with the Vienna Instrument Chamber Strings. I don't have the exact figures here, but the Standard content includes 25% to 30% of all samples, and the extended content 70 to 75%.

Pardon me, but I'm not sure I've undesrtood.

VI Chamber Strings include more new samples in Standard Edition than in Extended one?

Joseph, what is your situation ? What products are you considering upgrading ?

@herb said:

I don't have the exact figures here, but the Standard content includes 25% to 30% of all samples, and the extended content 70 to 75%.

best
Herb

And how can I get 100% [*-)]

By getting the Standard + Extended

ok he meant Standard 25% + 75%

I thought ill have 75% at all, in the end [:P]

IMO the "traded car" analogy is irrelevant in this context. Firstly, it's not a product that will become "used" per se and VSL is not re-sellable. Also, the guarantee that you never pay for the same thing twice does hardly fit into that context either.

In this case, it's not a question about how much use a customer has gotten in the past from his/hers products, but rather how many products he/she purchased in the past.

The VIP program is a major selling point for the VSL products and I'm sure one that many customers take into consideration before buying. This means that if VSL deviates from this guarantee ever so slighltly (even in the neighbourhood of cents) they would have not only broken it but also broken the trust of many old and loyal customers.

It's part of why you buy VSL...the fact that being an old and loyal customer will ensure you that you will not lose money in the upgrading process. They made us a promise, and now we expect them to live up to it. It's as simple as that and has nothing to do with used cars.

However, let me give you an example (I've used the Solo Strings because the info is available, although by the sound of it, other old customers might be even "worse" off):

If someone for example bought the "old" Horizon Solo Strings for the full price...he/she would have payed €445 for the 16 bit/44.1 kHz samples and without the Vienna Instrument.

However, if a brand new customer buys the VI Solo Strings he/she only has to pay €345 for the 24 bit/44.1 kHz samples and including the Vienna Instrument.

Not only does this mean that the old customer has to pay more initially but he/she is also forced to buy the extended VI version in order to "get the money back" he/she already invested into the VIP program...but furthermore...if you add it up, this is what you get (again Solo Strings example):

New customer: Standard VI Solo Strings + Extended VI Solo Strings = €345 + €445 = Total of €790

Old customer: Horizon Solo Strings + Standard VI + Extended VI = €445 + €345 + €30 = Total of €820

Not only does an old cutomer have to pay €790 just to get the VI Standard version (whereas a new customer only needs to pay €345 for the same step) but the old customer also pays a greater total in the end (€30 more to be exact).

This must of course mean that the old customer does indeed pay for the samples he/she already own...or else the total would be exactly the same?

Finally, it's not the amount of the difference that is important, but the principle. VSL made a promise and guarantee to their customers that they never have to pay for the samples twice when upgrading. Does VSL intend to honor this promise or not?

Rodney

I am going to have one more go at this and then give up. All I can talk about is my situation, so apologies if it doesn't apply to you.

The Standard content is £2600, Extended is £3537, so a new user pays £6137.

As an existing user if I was given a discount on the Standard then I would be entitled to no discount for the Extended (let's ignore some of the peripheral Horizon content for the moment). So, I would have to pay £3537 for my new sample engine, 24bit samples, re-programming and increased content.

As it is, I am guessing from what cm has already said that my Extended content will be no more than £900, so in this situation I am facing a bill for £3500.

This would mean that for me to break even (paying the full price for extended) the upgrade would have to be £37................! Not very likely, therefore I am in a far better situation by paying in full for Standard and much less for Extended. The only way that I can lose is by not unlocking the Extended content.

It all gets slightly confusing with the Horizon products as from what Herb says there may not be many new samples for some of them (if I am understanding correctly).

If I have got this wrong I'm sure that someone from VSl will chip in and correct me, but maybe not on a Sunday [:D]

DG

@DG said:

I am going to have one more go at this and then give up. All I can talk about is my situation, so apologies if it doesn't apply to you.

The Standard content is £2600, Extended is £3537, so a new user pays £6137.

As an existing user if I was given a discount on the Standard then I would be entitled to no discount for the Extended (let's ignore some of the peripheral Horizon content for the moment). So, I would have to pay £3537 for my new sample engine, 24bit samples, re-programming and increased content.

You should include in the "old user" bill the package he already owns, otherwise you won't have the right fee.

If you upgrade a car for 30 EUR, you should not ignore that you paid the car 8.500 EUR.

"There is no such thing as a free meal", or something like that...

@DG said:

I am going to have one more go at this and then give up. All I can talk about is my situation, so apologies if it doesn't apply to you.

The Standard content is £2600, Extended is £3537, so a new user pays £6137.

As an existing user if I was given a discount on the Standard then I would be entitled to no discount for the Extended (let's ignore some of the peripheral Horizon content for the moment). So, I would have to pay £3537 for my new sample engine, 24bit samples, re-programming and increased content.

You should include in the "old user" bill the package he already owns, otherwise you won't have a correct fee.

If you upgrade a car for 30 EUR, you should not ignore that you paid the car 8.500 EUR...

Not at all, when one pays for an upgrade, the original price one paid is irrelevant. the argument has been about paying for the same samples twice and I have shown that exisiting users could actually be getting a much better deal than they think they are.

DG